A question from a saint... for anyone that would like to give an answer...
 

I haven't been on this site for a very long time.. I was a former Methodist for 12 years.. and now I have been an Apostolic/Pentecostal for 34 years.. so I have been around alot of different things in my life.. and have had family and friends in different faiths/beliefs etc...
When I first was introduced to "Pentecost" at the age of 9.. it was NOTHING like what folks are calling "Pentecost" now..
I have always been taught that in the "end times" there would be a "great falling away"..
I don't understand why women have went from never cutting their hair to cutting it...
Television was TABOO.. now it seems to be the ISSUE at hand in which the UPCI is "concerned about".. but all the while that seems to be the "hot issue"... there are WAY MORE concerns for some of us saints.. than Television..
Pants on women.. when I heard it preached againest as a child.. now it is going on at alot of places... etc...
I guess if I had to ask a generalized question for anyone to answer it would sort of go like this..
"What is Pentecost to you?"
or maybe this question... "How have you personally changed as a Pentecostal over the years"....??
I don't mean this in a judgemental way.. I think there are alot of us that neither want to stray to the left... or the right.. we just honestly want to do what is right by the Lord and win souls for the Lord .. instead of being "confused by all the changes that are going on within Pentecost in general..
I haven't forgotten what it was like as a child to have parents searching for more truth.. and they were very glad when they heard about Acts 2:38..
It concerns some of us that are just tired of all the confusion that seems to be going on...
I have told some of my family and friends.. when rubber meets the road.. wouldn't we be better off leaving off things.. instead of adding more
things" to our lives.. and finding out some day .. that some "things" really did matter to the Lord .. when we come face to face with Him.. it will be too late to change our ways then..
One last comment/or question... Can someone PLEASE explain what is all the deal about "magic hair"???
I have "never" saw that until I was on this particular site... anyone want to answer that for me.. please feel free too..
I do care what happens around me.. simply because things that have already changed in Pentecost has affected my family.. and I want Bible answers if any of you would like to share your thoughts/and or scriptures concerning as to what being "Pentecostal" is to you .. God bless and guide all of us is my prayer!

my eyes! My eyes! Please Please PLEASE break up posts like this into more white space

Some of us Pentecostals have NOT changed we preach and live like we always have.

I believe a lot in the charismatic/denominational world are discovering water baptism.... and a lot in the Apostolic world are discovering grace. It's an exciting time to live!

<sigh>
This is the logical result of unchecked legalism. It comes from a combination of legalism and taking away so much from one class of humanity (in this case, the female gender) that they have to invent something of a mystical nature in order to feel important and have reason in the grand scheme of things. In this case, having their long glorious uncut hair actually provide a physical sort of protection for their family. It is about making their hair into a magical talisman that somehow wards off evil spirits.

Wouldn't it just make more sense to practice witchcraft openly if you're going to anyhow? (and hey..you're posting!?! :yahoo)

nahkoe, what are you doing over here? Welcome to AFF. LOL!:scoregood

Oops..I outed my lurking self. :runhills

Every denomination and movement has some things that are "dated", and were right for that date, but not another. Robes were exchanged for pants at one time or other.

Every group has traditions, also, that are wrong, though held by people who are quite sincere in thinking they are correct. No one is perfect here yet.

People generally adhere tenaciously to what teachings they were first taught, never to consider anything different, be it Mormon doctrine or whatever. That is good if they were taught the truth at first. But what if some error was mixed amongst the truths they were first taught? So few people can allow even GOD to change them if they are in error. Just because something happened by our ears, in the form of teaching, before another message did, does not mean it is correct. What about the person who heard something else preached to them first before what we first heard preached to us? If everyone was to go by whatever they first heard preached, and stuck to it with all their guns, closed to the possibility they may be wrong in perhaps ONE area or ALL of it, SOMEONE IS WRONG and will never be recovered if they happen to have been taught error.

I believe the Holy Ghost came to guide us into all truth. The moment we think we do not have to be led any more, nor corrected about any teaching any more, is the moment the Spirit leaves us. So it is only to be expected that things change as time goes by in the way of beliefs.

But a person can go in one of three ways! One can change from a belief and thereby depart from truth. On the other hand, it may mean change TO truth. Or, it may mean change from what is error to another error.

So it is rather circular, and really only spinning our wheels, when we compare what we believed and were taught in the past with what we believe differently and are taught differently now. What if BOTH teachings are wrong? How do we know? Everyone says the bible says what they believe, from Mormons to us Apostolics. The bible is not the problem. It's OUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible that can be the problem. Yes, there is ONE interpretation that is correct and all others are wrong. We can say that for every single verse of the bible. Which one is correct? It is the one we must pray about in order for God to show us, and towards which we must be open for correction. If we already know the truth about a verse, then we still should pray for correction, because ultimately only God knows if we do have it right, and he will confirm it if we do.

This is why we must seek God with everything sincere in us, and pray "lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from evil." Pray that God keeps us on, or directs us to, the narrow way which leadeth unto life, where few there be that find it.

That is a great post.

Blessings, Rhoni

Thanks, sister.

This issue reminds me... I have often noticed that some people start "freaking out" when they stop to consider, "How do I know I have the truth?" I have spoken to preachers (!) who felt it is too dangerous a road to travel when one seeks for God to speak to them or direct them concerning truth. They reason, "Many killers have claimed God spoke to them about their mission to kill. What if I end up like that?" I am amazed at ministry who claims to serve God is afraid to even consider to reach out to God for verification or correction in regards to truth using this reasoning.

If there is a God, and WE KNOW there is, and His Word shows us quite clealry that we can hear from Him and be directed by Him, through MANY MANY different means, we must settle it that if we ask for an egg He is not going to give us a serpent.

Whether or not there are a billion and one different doctrines in this world, let alone religions, where truth is like a needle in a haystack, God can hear the prayers of the sincere soul and seek that person out and direct them towards truth.

GOD IS REAL! :D

Don't know if this is making your question a standards issue or not, but here goes. It was my experience when I came into this way, that many things (standards) were preached as absolutes and necessary for salvation. As I search the scriptures and sought God, I found that I had to make some decisions on what Holiness was, and how a child of God should live. As I developed a walk with God, and learned about the Grace of God, I found that outward holiness was only a part of holiness. The most important aspect of holiness is inward holiness, a part of which are portrayed in the Fruit of the Spirit. While outward standards have a place in our walk with God, I do not believe that they are heaven or hell issues. My walk with God is just that - a walk where I depend on HIS leading.

I heard of an Ole Timer that wouldn't drink as he called it "Sodey Pop". When he started Dr. Pepper's, he felt as though he were backslid. So, he gave them up. Would he have gone to hell for drinking "Sodey Pop/Dr. Peppers"? I don't think so. Did he think so? Yes he did. Does that seem silly to some here? I would think so.

Carry it to other areas and think how it seems to some here. We have to seek out our own salvation. Some issues are salvational and some are not. Be temperate. Be moderate. Be wise. Worrying about drinking "Sodey Pop" or not drinking it is a little out of balance for me, but I guess not for him.

I've known others who couldn't eat candy bars with chocolate. No chocolate pie, no chocolate pudding, no chocolate syrup or Ovaltine. They thought anyone who partook of anything with caffeine was going to hell. How do we draw the line? We must seek God for guidance. There is always someone out there preaching about something that another person does not believe as wrong.

The Bible tells us..."they that hunger and thirst after righteousness will be filled.". One way to confirm if it is God talking to you is if what you hear being said is in agreement with the word. There are many voices in the world but the scriptures teach that His sheep Hear His voice and will not follow another.

For many years I was afraid to speak on certain issues because I worried that people would think that I thought I was "so spiritual". One of those issues is talking about the spirit world and how demonic forces work and operate to steal, kill, and destroy. I don't worry about it so much now. If a person truly believes that Christ's spirit is greater than satan's, then there should be no reason to fear.

It is very difficult for some people to dicipher between man's traditions and what truly saith the word of the Lord. Many things have been said from the pulpit that they claimed was God, but it was man...for this very reason we are told to "study to show ourselves approved unto God...", and to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

I do not believe that we should have to live in so much fear that we would rather give up every convenience of pleasure, or fashion of dress just in case God may have a problem with it. The scriptures are clear...we are to be modest and moderate in all things. Surely folks can tell if they are dressed inappropriately..if things are showing that shouldn't be, or too flashy or ornate to draw attention to oneself. It isn't about being so different from the status quo that we are thought to be 'odd'. It is about people seeing your modesty and knowing that you are a child of God and live a holy life.

For the saint who wants to know...I am thankful that our elders who have taught their own 'traditions' have confessed that they were wrong to put more on the people than God intended. I can respect this kind of leader.

What I have trouble with is Pastors who continue to preach things they know are not Biblical just so they can't be accused of "compromize". This makes it about their pride and not about the truth.

Bro. Blume I am enjoying your input on these things. Your wisdom shows.

Blessings, Rhoni

Miss Jane,

Good thought. You know, many of us are like the Catholics who give us something for LENT..like chocolate or pastries...something that they give up as a sacrifice. This is honorable to do if you feel led to do it. When it becomes wrong is when you try to impose your sacrifice to God on others by requiring something that there is no Biblical basis for it.

We have heard discrepencies all through the years because one's thoughts on what is right and wrong for them are preached to other's as God's truth. This is why you would say, "Pentecost has changed". It is not Pentecost...the basic doctrine of the church is still the same, but people have changed and our culture has changed. God never changes. That is the security I rest in.

Blessings, Rhoni

Hi kylady,

I have been around and in Pentecost since I was 11 years old (35 years ago). My own immediate family wasn't saved until many years later when I led most of them to a Pentecostal altar.

However, I do have extended family members whose family photographs go all the way back to early years of the movement. In these photos I see our pioneers with beards, women in slacks and with cut hair.

I remember seeing one photo of the wife of the UPC General Superintendant going into a reception at General Conference in the 1950's She was wearing a small and discrete set of pearls.

What you remember as being "the norm" for you was really a minority view in the early years. That's why the various Resolutions and additions to the Articles of Faith were added in subsequent years. These changes represent something of a paper trail of changes. Changes that were often forced upon churches, saints and preachers.

There is a photo on another thread of one of the first Apostolic missionaries. He was the grandfather of a poster here. Sadly this pioneer would never be considered for a FM appointment today. Not because of his message, but because of his beard.

Things seem to have remained "unchanged" for you because you were a apparently a part of the party that was winning out for a while. For the rest of us we have been troubled most of our lives as we have watched the Gospel message changed and extra-biblical and even un-biblical doctrines were added.
Television was always a controversial subject. The ban on TV advertising in 1977 had been proposed and defeated for years until its proponents got enough control to wrest it through.

Again, I have seen family photos of Apostolic pioneers where the women are involved in painting and in outdoor recreation. The women were wearing slacks. It was taboo for a lady to wear slacks when it wasn't necessary for modesty and wearing them to church was often considered a sin. But modesty was important in those days. So if the ladies were climbing ladders and such they wore slacks.

This wasn't universal, as your experience proves. But that's the point. There was respect for different views back in those days.
And this is why so many pastors tried so hard to isolate their saints from the fellowship at large. They didn't want people to see the broad spectrum of ideas and standards that existed.

Thankfully, we have the Word of God that tells us what is essential. Go through your "do's and don't's" and compare them to Scripture. Then there is no need to fear when the Lord returns. He has given us his Word so that we can have confidence in how we live our lives.

There is an influential writer who also speaks at retreats and Conferences who teaches that the uncut hair of a women gives her power to call angels and other spiritual benefit. A couple of popular male evangelists have helped to spread this idea. Ladies are instructed to spread out their hair over photos of loved ones being prayed for, over prayer requests and even onto the bodies of the sick or oppressed. It is said that the uncut hair will summon angels for protection and healing or for whatever the need is.

Many on AFF feel that this is unbiblical and wrong. I personally feel that it is silly and wrong. There's a spectrum of opinion like with everything else.

Pelathais,

You have given her good answers to her questions. The only point I can see that I agree with about the Doctrine of the hair is that God does honor our obedience to those who have the rule over us.

Many times children obey parents not understanding why they have told them 'no' about something. Parents have a deeper understanding of the dangers out there that come with age.

Many Pastors have the mind of God about a thing that is meant for their congregation alone, because of the spirits in that city or surrounding community. They sound the warning for their people and the obedience without understanding is an honor to God.***just clarification here: the way it is presented as a protection and not a sin is very important, and needs to be in alignment with the scripture, we are not talking about drinking the kool-aid here***

Not cutting your hair and asking God to honor your obedience does get God's attention.

Blessings, Rhoni

You have absolutely no right to say this.

You do not know me or anything about me.

I am not an Ultra con. just a conservative, that preaches the Word of God.

I still preach the same thing that my great grand parents taught me and it is bible. I have not and will not accept this watered down message that so many wish to follow today.


PS if I am ever wrong I will be the first to amit it.

You're right and I apologize.

Blessings, Rhoni

One of the dearest ladies in all the world was a member of our church when I was a young'un...if ever someone deserved to bear the title of "Saint," it was she.

She sponsored the Freemans in Africa for years with funds, as well as encouraging letters.

As a side note: when I was yet unsaved, she prophesied over me things that she never saw come to pass.

I said all of that to lay the ground work here...this dear Mother in Zion owned an apartment house and was widowed.

She did all of the yardwork and upkeep herself, and many is the time in my youth our family would go by there and see her up on a ladder in a pair of baggie jeans.

She never wore them anywhere else and would have had a duck to see me in pants.

Well into her 70s she wore them...not to be cute, but for convenience sake.

We never thought that she was out of line for doing so, and I still don't.

We have lost much it appears...

It probably makes you cringe to see a thread entitled "Will a Woman go to Hell for Wearing Pants?".

It makes me cringe too.

Does me:) Because of my leg injuries I feel much better and my legs hurt less when I wear pants...especially in cold weather. When the metal gets cold my bones ache and ache...and I'd hate to think God would keep me out of heaven over keeping my legs warm.

I tend to believe in women not wearing pants & in women having uncut hair as well!

Sad thing is brethren if you believe in and see scripture for it you are a "legalist"
and should be "silenced" for seeing scripture in that context.

Another sad thing is that people who don't see it that way want to have "tolerence" for their views, but can not respect others who do not see it that way!

Sad indeed.:(

Hi Rhoni,

I like your posts. I just want to add a comment on this part of your post.

There are many stipulations in Hebrews Ch 13 for us to consider regarding our obeying those who have the rule over us. We are not obligated to blindly obey anyone.

1) Are they speaking, "the Word of God"? (Heb 13: 7)
2) Does their faith follow? (vs. 7)
3) Is their lifestyle consistent with their own teaching? (vs. 7)
4) Are they teaching, "divers and strange doctrines"? (vs. 9)
5) Are they "teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men"? (Mk 7:7)
6) Are they "placing an unnecessary yoke on Jesus' disciples"? (Acts 15:10)

Yes, I agree Big Larry! Pastor spoke on this subject 8/29/07. When the Jewish leaders were trying to make the Gentiles conform to their Jewish law when Christ saved them/filled them with the Holy Ghost just as he did the Jews. Paul kind of called their hand on it. It is time for us to call the hand of those who would keep us in bondage to a law that Christ died to fulfill.

Blessings, Rhoni

HOGWASH!

I agree

Yes, Wholehearted, you are correct. Consider the apostasy within the Apostolic movement over the last 60 or 70 years. There was a time when the Finished Work of Calvary was preached as an integral part of the Apostolic message. Over the years however, many worldly preachers have come along to seduce the people into believing that man-made works and traditions could replace what God did for us on Calvary.

They have taken the cross out of the message and replaced it with worldly fashions. Consider the pioneers of our faith who believed that it was effeminate for a man to shave his face smooth like a woman's. But then worldly styles changed. No sooner did the Prince of Wales (Later to be crowned Edward VIII) come onto to the fashion scene that the
world's fashions changed as well. Suddenly this hip and "modern" young man was setting the pace for the way men groomed the world over. Craving acceptance by the world many Apostolic preachers left the old paths behind. In time Edward would lose his crown because of the choices he made. How many Apostolics would also lose their crowns?

There's a lesson to be learned here. Give up your worldly path and get back to the old paths. Go back to Calvary and find the cross again for yourselves.

I don't believe this. I don't believe it was a King from England that caused preachers to preach againt facial hair. It was the wild hippies that came along and did years of irreparable damage to our culture

Yes, all of those preachers who "compromise" on these issues are known for getting up at GC, camps and Dist Conf's and blasting away about the "legalists." uhm... wait a minute, it's always the "legalists" who is doing the blasting from the pulpits of our GC, camps and Dist. Conf's. Maybe what you describe exists in your area, but traveling around much of North America I have seen just the ooposite.

Ron, there's plenty of finger pointing that can be done, but it's those who want to be "legalistic" who have tended to be the harshest. They have pursued an agenda that violates the merger agreement since there was a merger agreement. They don't encourage their people to fellowship with saints from other churches because they don't want them to see that there's a diversity of opinion. They never respected the other side and they do not cooperate. And now many of their voices are calling for a walk-out.

Personally I couldn't care less about the "pants" (as long as we understand what is modest) or the hair issues. My own wife and daughter have never cut their hair- not once, not a single strand in all of their lives. To be honest, I've never even heard our current pastor preach on either and he has the reputation for being rather conservative. And I don't "force" them one way or the other (it wouldn't matter; they'd take just as long to get ready anyway...). But they have their consecration. It's theirs and not one I have forced upon them. It doesn't give them "magic hair" but I think it does do some good in the self esteem department. I'm sure you've seen the same thing among those who you're close to.

What troubles me is the way that the cross of Christ is crowded out by a bunch of clothesline preaching. We have trained an army to judge the outward appearances but they too often miss what's within their own hearts.

It wasn't the king himself. It was the fashion style changes that he represented.

Before the "hippies" it was the beatniks. Before the beatniks it was "all Communists have beards..." It's a bit older than you, Thad. Just go through old pictures of the OP movement and watch the styles change. Then notice the date when the preachers changed their style.

Fashion is of course a complex issue, and why people dress up the way they do is often mysterious. But pick up the popular magazines of the day and flip through the pages (or microfilm at your local library).

Pelathais,

You have done excellent posting on this thread. I have enjoyed reading your responses and most are right on.

Blessings, Rhoni

My dear sister,
The truth that you received in the beginning of your walk is still truth. I have been living for God for quite some time now and have witnessed the slow deterioration of our movement that is quite evident in our midst.
If we put aside all of the arguments against the things you noted on your post and look objectively at the church as a whole we must admit that there are serious problems that we have now that were unthinkable say thirty years ago. The church has always had its share of problems throughout history. No doubt in this flesh dwelleth no good thing,so the battle always rages on. But if we honestly connect the dots and make a connection between the sanctification practices of days gone by and todays unbridled sanctification of carnality then some head scratching should begin.
I witnessed a UPC district,actually a whole state, go from the sanctification practices you mentioned (with revival) to where you wondered where the annointing went.
Spiritural liberty went out the door and spiritual bondage replaced it. Slowly the inportance of the Name and the Blood is being replaced with psychology, motivational speakers and purpose driven agendas. Our identy is being swallowed up by these movements (I am only mentioning a few). Apostolics dont even know who they are any more. They are having an identity crisis.
There is a strong connection with the curtailing of sanctification and the down hill slope of watered down doctrine. Large Apostolic denominations are allowing the sinners prayer to remit sins. This is happening as I write these words. This is a denial of the name of Jesus. Sins can only be remitted in his name. So connect the dots. The name is our identity. The movement is in confusion. But if we stick with the foundational truths that we were taught we wont forget who our daddy is.
Folks are fussing over t.v. Dont we understand that the system has controlled and formed our thinking? The corporations that control t.v and the media also make the guns and bombs. The media have apostolics believing that we should send our children to die in undeclared wars for oil. Our collective heads are not screwed on right. (War is big business and its going to get bigger with the bombing of Iran.) I hear the old cry,"We only want a t.v to watch the news" (something is wrong with that picture)
T.v is full of lies and filth it is intellectually damaging and has no place in our collective hearts. Again I urge, connect the dots.
God Bless You

*ahem, clears throat*
Welcome to AFF. LOL! God bless.

No reason to get Irritable pelathais. I am not one of those who ascribe to the doctrine that facial hair is a Sin. I just don't believe that history that goes back centuries ago has anything to do with today's reasoning

I refuse to let what was going on 40 years ago dictate to me how I am going to look. The 60s are long gone. Get over it already.

LOL! Thad, if you're referring to the pics that Pelathais posted, they weren't from CENTURIES ago...they were from 70 years ago!!!





(psst... :thad that would be decades.) :heeheehee

I don't know how that came across as irritable, Thaddaeus. :) And 1936 is a bit more recent than "centuries ago." It was a pivotal time when a lot the nascent Apostolic thoughts and practices were forming into concrete practices.

What are the main differences? Just in standards? Or in other ways?

What does scripture have to say about that?

Several reasons could play into such a decision, such as:

* The woman never believed it to begin with, and when given the freedom to do so, went ahead and cut her hair.

* The woman violated her own convictions in an act of rebellion.

* The younger generation has not been taught the same or has not developed the same convictions as the older generation...for a number of reasons.

Despite all the recent hoopla, in my opinion, TV is a DEFUNCT issue. It doesn't even matter anymore. It will be a tool used by some, but the internet is far more hip and relevant as an outreach tool.

What is the question?

Personally? As a teenager and in my early twenties, I developed my own convictions, some of them the same as other Pentecostals, some of them different. In my mind, most of the major issues are now settled and decided.

There's nothing to be confused about. I believe what I believe according to what the Word says, and those beliefs don't change no matter where I am, or what kind of church I'm attending. I may change my practices or lifestyle according to what an assembly teaches, but never my own personal beliefs.

We shouldn't live in fear. We should live with confidence in God. He isn't out to trick us, or leave some obscure rule unsaid so that we will unknowingly fail and miss out on an eternal reward. If you need to know what to believe and how to live, just look to scripture.

I had never heard it referred to in that way, either, until I read posts on the FCF....Basically, "magic hair" seems to be the idea that uncut hair protects a person or their family from evil or sickness, perhaps like a talisman and/or if a woman cuts her hair, she is removing that protection from herself, her family and her home.

Hello Sister Helen. You make some of the same observations that Kylady did. But you also bring up somethings that confuse me toward the end of your post.

That sounds like you've been unduly influenced by worldy thoughts.

That would explain the overwhelming support from the media the president has seen for his policies in Iraq. But wait a minute... he hasn't seen any support from the media at all (hardly). Even his "friends" tend to hedge their support.

I find your assertion rather curious given the overwhelmingly negative coverage the current administration receives from the media. Major Television outlets have stumbled all over themselves to bring out obviously forged and faked "news" items to try and undermine support for the "guns and bombs." Your understanding of "corporate" America seems to be influenced more by communist/socialist ideology than the "foundational truths" of the Apostolic movement.

You are familiar with the Congressional War Powers Act of 1973? This is how Congress has Constitutionally delegated certain actions that formerly involved a full declaration of war to the president so that as Commander in Chief he can fulfill his presidential responsibilities to "protect and defend" the United States.

We are in a war with an enemy that has openly declared war on us. However they are not a formal nation-state with recognized boundaries and government. They are something that wasn't really envisioned by the framers of the Constitution in 1789. In fact, even by the time of the First Barbary War (1801-1805) the US president was sending Marines and sailors to fight on foreign soil without the benefit of a formal declaration of war ("the shores of Tripoli..."). In that case as well, the US was fighting a stateless enemy.

I think that you might benefit from the judicious use of good television programming. I recommend first the many basic civics government classroom programs on PBS and even watching our government at work on CSPAN. This would bring you up to date on Constitutional developments since 1801.

Next follow the History Channel and Discovery Network's Military Channel. The Military Channel is currently running several series of "war diaries" made by our soldiers in combat and on the front lines. Here you can see and hear from our people out there and hear directly from them as they discuss the things that they are fighting for. I've never heard any of them mention oil, by the way.

And for your benefit, neither PBS nor the Discovery Networks have a reputation as shills for the "military industrial complex."