cruel and cannibals...
 

In 40 years of ministry on the mission field and being in ministry since a small child tonight I am sitting in front of my computer so sad...never before have I seen men killing each other like I have seen on this trip to the states. I am writing with tears running down my cheeks...How can we kill each other and survive? I know we all have those we do not agree with... personality conflicts but do our children need to know all these things?
I have been to the cannibal indians in the deep dark jungles...I know the fear of looking at naked indians with bones through their noses. I know the fear of watching them talk in their own language and wondering what they were saying about me. I know the fear of squatting at their fires, eating what they gave me. I saw poisoned arrows handy on the ground and knew anything could happen...

Yet that was out in the jungles among bloodthirsty cannibals ... but tonight it is not over the souls of those I weep it is over the souls of our own oneness Jesus Name people. Ministers that discuss other ministers in front of their children and church folks...Ministers that plant hate and distrust among those they love the most...What will be the fate of the innocent? Do we really win when we lose our children to hate?


Gal 5:15

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
KJV

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).

With this in mind I chose NOT to speak evil of my brothers and sisters...

(just a few thoughts from a mother in Zion)

Sis Alvear, Glad to see you back on AFF. I have been worried about you! Preach it ,Sister!

been traveling... am in Little Rock tonight resting...did a ladies meeting in Dayton Ohio...We had an awesome presence of the Lord in every service.
Brother Alvear just got back in from Brazil today. love you my friend

This is a true thread Sister A. It's been said that the Christian army is the only army in the world that destroys it's wounded , how sad indeed.

Yes, I wish we could learn to love as Jesus loved...

I'll admit I'm a long ways from being there.

me too...

Sister, I could not agree more. I think it is unbelievable when I hear things that are discussed in front of children, what hope do our kids have if they cannot have faith in the ministry or their fellow saints. The time will come all to soon when they have to find out about the ugly sides to people and life.

My parents never discussed church problems or problems within the ministry in front of me or my siblings, and I thank God for their wisdom. I told someone the other day, that when something really horrible was going on at church, I was the pastors child, and I was always the last to know. My friends would never believe that I didn't know about whatever it was, and I would go to my parents, horrified. I am so thankful for the protection of Godly parents!

We have a whole family of children in our church right now that are backslid, and I can place a direct line between how they feel about the church and God, and what they heard discussed in the home. (I know because one of the girls was friends with my daughter, and she would fill my child in with the trash that she heard, leaving my child to come to me with troubling questions.) It is a tragedy.

Amen Sister Alvear.

I am grieved to see such things openly talked about in front of children.

You so right, lawyers are so busy with cases of child abuse these days. It is sad our world has come to this type of abuse (verbal and physical)

what a sad legacy we are leaving.

Brother Alvear and I never talked church problems or minister problems in front of our children. What they found out they found out from others. Far too many children have been hurt and are bitter and probably will never come through a Pentecostal church door...
There are enough things out their trying to destroy our children...

I agree that we need to guard our children...but my thoughts run to adults as well.

My faith was shaken for a time when the ministry decided to 'caution' and 'warn' me about another member. She was highly esteemed, a devout, loyal, hard-working servant. A mentor to many, she helped many with her wisdom. And one of the most spiritual, prayerful, genuine Christians I know.

My only thought for months was, 'If SHE can't 'make it'...what possible hope was there for me?' I was devastated and crushed, and felt so very, very hopeless. :sad

Did this woman fail God, or fall away? What great sin did she commit? None. Other than to break the cult-like cycle of 'owning' a saint: she decided to move away.

I spent much time in turmoil over that. I think most people would have just walked away and never looked back. I thank God that this dear woman planted much faith and trust in God in me, and that He never let go of me.

I learned a great lesson after this: MEN will fail, but God doesn't!

I agree totally and completely!!! We went thru a horrible church ordeal in the last yr and in the midst of that there was no way to keep the children sheltered.. oh how we wished we could but... the kids were the ss teachers for the little kids (mine and the pastors oldest kids were) and they were heading a majority of our music and other parts of thechurch.. it was a HM work of about 130 and they pulled too much of the load honestly...

when things went sour... they were too much in the midst of it for some reasons I cant go into but it scarred them and for life for some of them I am afraid! My oldest daughter wouldnt hardly walk into a church building for almost a month... It is so much better if they arent involved but sometimes depending on the situation it is impossible for them to not know.

May the Lord help us to know WHO we should talk to. I know sometimes we all need to unload. we all need a shoulder to cry on...I have cryed on the WRONG shoulder a few times in my time...
I have no idea who talks more men or women...

I see this subject as double edged: Things are discussed in front of children (and adults) that shouldn't be. And things that SHOULD have the glaring spotlight pointed at it, are swept under the rug. That is until the media finally gets its claws into the story.

I agree, I understand what you are saying here. To this day, I still don't know half the stuff that goes on in our church, and I work in the church office! I guess the point that I was making about knowing stuff as adults, sometimes we have no choice but to know the things we do as adults, but we can shelter our children as much as possible. I am divorced, and it really hurt me when my nieces and nephews got old enough to start asking questions about my situation, I hated to have to expose them to that side of life. (Of course I am not talking about giving them details, just that what divorce was, that it even existed.)

That is funny!!!! Good question!! :toofunny

ha...love you folks

and yes there are times we have to talk with our children and explain things but we have the opportunity of doing it with a right spirit.

Sis Alvear, perhaps you should have considered this same philosophy that has served you so well before posting this thread.

You have just given fuel to some who are always looking for a reason to distrust the ministry.

If you were personally observing this, why didn't you speak to them about it instead of bringing it here where everyone from saints in some of these churches to bitter, former Pentecostals can read it?

How many on this forum will now be encouraged to go to church?

jmo

That is not right, she was bringing something that had burdened her. :nah

If that is the way you feel about all this, why are you on the forum, reading it?

We all get done wrong...we all get hurt...that is life...but how we react to anger and hurt depend on our self control....

Just since I have been home someone came to me and told me something someone else was telling about our home and family...the sad part we helped that person for many years then when something went wrong the person went off and told absurd things...I did not speak one evil word about the person to the one that was telling me the story in front of my son...my only reply was if the story were true it is strange the person lived at my house for years and was happy...
Sometimes those that gossip about us really would like to be us...since they cannot be they try to tear down the folks they secretly would like to be...

After we left my son said, mother why didn't you tell this or that I told him what I will tell you, Life is too short to spend time tearing others down...

Circumstances come...problems have to be solved. I will be the first to say I have made lots of mistakes trying to solve problems but I have tryed to do my best to help people and shield my children from endless gossip...and I really hate to see my husband ( Brother Alvear) know how much Americans fuss and fight...He is such a peace loving person.

Just seems to me that these "cannibals" are more than likely those that have supported their missions and had them preach while they were in the states. It's the only churches I read about them visiting.

It would seem ethical to me that she owes them a chance to correct that impression before it is offered here to us.

She named no names or even made allusions as to who, or what, or where she was speaking off. Speaking of bitterness?????

Josh...you must not be in the ministry...sorry if I said anything to hurt you. All know I would do nothing to hurt the church. I have given my life helping others.

I have called no one a name that supports us or missions I am talking in general terms from what I see and hear...

I visit all type churches from UC to liberal churches...so you are wrong in your judging. I am only concerned about the innocent that are becoming bitter. Josh, I have weathered the storms for 40 years of ministry and come out on top and hoping to leave a legency of love and hope for my children.

Josh, whoever you are you must have some serious problems. I am speaking in general terms...Read the forums see how many of our own that are being destroyed...I do not even personally know most of them but I respect what they have done for God whether I agree with their politics or not.

I just read this to Brother Alvear he would like you to know that we visist some of God's most noble people and our concern is what is happening in our church world (Pentecostal) today...

Sister, I wouldn't worry about this, there is obviously some other issue going on. You shouldn't waste any time worrying about it.

Josh, you aren’t going to get much support on this one. AFF is a place where this and much more a discussed openly with no issues. You are off base bro.

I have always respected you, but in this one, Sister Alvear is 100% correct. She didn’t try to suggest that one group or another was guilty. Many from every side of the divide has been guilty of the charge.

I also think it was wrong of you to suggest that her comments are somehow connected to the good people that support her and her husband. That kind of comment can be distressing! I wish you would reconsider that.

Josh, I know you are a very conservative pastor and most here know that as well. I don’t think you want anyone to misconstrue you comments in a way that would appear to be threatening would you?

Sis Alvear, "whoever I am" is a pastor who has hosted and supported your son for a number of years.

This statement you made: "it is over the souls of our own oneness Jesus Name people. Ministers that discuss other ministers in front of their children and church folks...Ministers that plant hate and distrust among those they love the most...What will be the fate of the innocent? Do we really win when we lose our children to hate?

...is worrying me. It makes me feel that you are discussing those whom you have been visiting while in the states. Perhaps others may assume otherwise...and I might be wrong. And, I might be too sensitive knowing the attitude of this forum towards the type of men who have supported you for years.

I just assumed that if you were hearing preachers discussing preachers, it would be those you would most likely be around. I confess that I've already felt from your posting that you think the conservative men are not unified enough. It is a logical assumption that you were speaking of them, especially since you referred to protecting your husband from seeing this side of them. That would generally mean it is someone he had respect for from a distance. So I'm not going to assume you meant trinitarians or charismatics.

And, I think you are right, but I think this is the wrong place to discuss such...

Anyway, I suppose you should do what you feel...

Yes, you are right. Blessings to you all.

Josh...if you know us then I think you should know our heartbeat. In no way would I ever on purpose say anything to hurt God's work or his people. I was talking in general terms. I LOVE God's people but my sons are young and I hate for them to hear some of the things they repete to me...sorry my friend...maybe I was wrong...will you forgive me?

You know, Ferd, perhaps I should have just pm'ed Sis A.

I am a friend of her son and have been for years. I hope that I didn't appear threatening, but I think that Sis Alvear should consider that when most people think of AFF they don't think first of the good folks who post here. The impression in the minds of most pastors is that AFF is a place where much anti-Pentecostal angst is exhibited.

Whether that is right or not, I cannot change.

I felt that it was good advice to her, and I still feel that way. I think it is important for her to understand the attacks that many conservative men have felt lately. Many conservative men feel that our motives and actions are being put into the worst possible light. It's not a good moment to be telling AFF that we look like cannibals.

Sis A, I should have just pm'ed you.

I just felt that the timing of this wasn't good...and AFF wasn't the place.

Oh, yes...don't miss the part where I said that I felt you were right in your assessment.

I very much value your views. And I agree that a lot of conservitive men do feel very put upon right now. I suggest that is because a lot of the Mods (like me) and Libs are doing the same thing that you feel the Cons are taking it on the chin for.

The fact is, what Sister A said applies to the whole entire thing....Cons to Libs we have taken a bite out of each other. (we) meaning all of us. and AFF is a microcosm of that too. No doubt this place has been a reflection of the wider world of Pentecost. AFFers have eaten each other up.

I fully understand why you fell as you do. my only issue was the way it sounded. Not because I believe you meant it that way but because it came across as kind of a threat.

I highly respect both you and Sister A.