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ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 07:10 PM
The LIE
 
This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

triumphant1 11-01-2007 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290032)
This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?
I have only heard them say, "We believe in ONE God......"

IAintMovin 11-01-2007 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290032)
This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?
Not attempting to be rude or ugly, and I have no stones to throw at you, but with all your opening remarks I guess the ONLY person who could answer your question fully would be the one who first spoke it and since these sayings have been around for more years than anyone on this forum, I would say it cant be answered..........

I realize what you are saying though about a lot of Trinitarians, but I have dealt with many in Oklahoma who believe very strongly in three gods..............I realize they are in the minority, but they are out there.

God bless

Brett Prince 11-01-2007 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290032)
This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?
AB,

I partially agree with you and partially do not.

I would agree that a large portion of those who are called trinitarians, while having a very erroneous view of the Godhead, do not believe in three Gods--but that their theology does tend towards it in effect.

However, there is a portion of them that truly do believe in three Gods. Dr. David Jeremiah has said--and I heard him with my own ears--that the Holy Ghost is the "forgotten God."

Furthermore, looking in history, we can find many who truly did hold to a three God position.

Today, many trinitarians are neo-trinitarians in that they do not adhere to the old trinitarian theology. There are some that might even be called neo-oneness.

I believe the proper term for those who truly believe in three Gods would be "tritheists." Tritheism would be an absolute abomination in the sight of God.

The trinitarians differ as much in their theological view of the Godhead as we Oneness types do, whether we want to admit it or not. We have several prevalent streams of views, ranging from one extreme to the other.

SDG 11-01-2007 07:19 PM
Oh c'mon AB ... you've uncovered one of the pillars of the Matrix .... you'll pay dearly for this .... the Borg will NOT tolerate it.

mizpeh 11-01-2007 07:19 PM
I don't know when it was started BUT recently a friend in my church was discussing Oneness with a Trinitarian friend. Her friend said that when she gets to heaven she will see three.

There are many art works depicting three..an old man, Jesus the Son, and a dove. I realize this is symbolic, but can you say three?

Three is the impression many get when a Trinitarian says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God but there is only one God.

If there is a misunderstanding I can see where it comes from.

ILUVHIM 11-01-2007 07:23 PM
To Altlanta Bishop
 
I know of churches and organizations that teaches the trinity as Three distinct beings (1-2-3), not three manifestations of one God. Have you ever listened to Creflo Dollar?

Thad 11-01-2007 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290032)
This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

AB,

I have encountered Trinitarians, that like you know of, were so close to Oneness that it was hard to even make out the difference. I've heard Bishop Patterson preach and he sounded SO oneness it was enough to make you shout :pirate

But then i have talked to other Trinitarians whose langauge was alarming! It was totally tritheistic. They literally said YES there are 3 gods yet 1 god- I was left going "Uuuuuh" ????? In their minds, because they use the lanuage, god the father god the son god the holy spirit there must be 3 seperate distinct individuals with their owns self beings.

This has led me to the conlusion that there are variations within the teaching of the Trinity. we have sung in many Trinitarian churches. some of them could care less that we were oneness. Others, upon hearing that we were oneness, immediatley cancelled us. So what i am saying is, the feelings work both ways.

I do think that a lot of trinitarians really do believe there is only One God and not 3. the problem is the termonology that they use such as "Persons" that causes Oneness people to recoil simply because when you use the word "persons" it implies a seperate being.

revrandy 11-01-2007 07:42 PM
Doesn't Bro. Benny teach in 9 or so manifestations?

I have heard Jimmy Swaggart, RW Schambach and many others preach oneness on the radio to ..but when they break down what they believe God is God and Jesus is Jehovah Junior... and the Holy Ghost while being the same is seperated from the two...

I have heard Hank Hanegraff preach the Trinitarian Doctrine.... to...

Many trinitarians have so many variations of Theology it's difficult to pin it down...but when you say Jesus is God / Not separated from the Father or the Holy Ghost they will argue until their face turns blue...*or others really don't care just as long as the checks, new cars and the "Spiritual Lottery" is preached...

or so it seems...

I think that it was born out of the Catholic Church...but today Theology isn't important as personal acquisitions and wealth while here on this earth...

I think the biggest LIE perpertuated is "Don't worry about Serving God as long as your Giving and the Check will be in the Mail".....

pelathais 11-01-2007 07:46 PM
When did it get started? Pretty much from the beginning. Gregory of Nyssa (died around 386) wrote an apologia entitled "On Not Three Gods."

When the Church's language made the shift from Greek to Latin, the "Fathers" began to use the Latin word "persona" instead of the Greek "prosopa."

Though both words had a similar meaning, in Latin philosophy "persona" was already developed to include the idea of "separate beings." The Greek "prosopa" didn't carry that baggage. So, in the West there was an almost immediate argument from some that the "Orthodox Christianity" of the Old Catholic Church was "tritheistic." Certain "heretics" of that time made the claim as did Jews and later Muslims. Many pagans remarked on what they saw as an inconsistency within Christian philosophy.

In many places orthodox believers themselves sometimes tended toward a tritheistic outlook as opposed to "what they're supposed to believe." Concerning Jesus Christ, the Nicene Creed states:
Quote:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
Today it's stated as, "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God..."

Add to that, the Holy Spirit,
Quote:
the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets...
and it's easy to see how even many Trinitarians get a tritheistic view. The language of the creeds inherently lends itself to the idea of "three seperate Beings who are all called "God."

The charge of "Tritheism" has been repeated by many since antiquity.

revrandy 11-01-2007 07:48 PM
I have always thought the concept of the Trinity denies the Sovereignty of God in itself...

aegsm76 11-01-2007 07:52 PM
A lot of wasted debates
 
Just think of all of those hours that were spent in debates that could have been avoided!
AB, I do agree with part of your premise. I do believe many "trinitarians" truly believe in one God. When I have had them explain their theory of the Godhead, this is what they believe.
In my personal experience, the issue arises over the word, "Trinity".

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 07:59 PM
The Questions still have not been answered. We all know what history says. We all know the definition of The Trinity.
I have not read a thing that I did not read 30 years ago when I first encountered a "Oneness Pentecostal".

We know that the early "Oneness" pioneers were not always "Oneness". When was that word coined?
Did the early "Oneness" pioneers that baptized in Jesus name say that the ones that stayed with the A/G believed in "Three God's"?

Somebody, somewhere knows where this stuff started and I want to know who started it. From all I have read - Haywood did not believe or preach that Trinitarians believed in Three God's. Did Andrew Urshan believe and preach this? Come on guys - you can do better than this. Tell the truth!

IAintMovin 11-01-2007 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290080)
The Questions still have not been answered. We all know what history says. We all know the definition of The Trinity.
I have not read a thing that I did not read 30 years ago when I first encountered a "Oneness Pentecostal".

We know that the early "Oneness" pioneers were not always "Oneness". When was that word coined?
Did the early "Oneness" pioneers that baptized in Jesus name say that the ones that stayed with the A/G believed in "Three God's"?

Somebody, somewhere knows where this stuff started and I want to know who started it. From all I have read - Haywood did not believe or preach that Trinitarians believed in Three God's. Did Andrew Urshan believe and preach this? Come on guys - you can do better than this. Tell the truth!
I will say again.......I think that whoever started it is probably DEAD.........so you might just be out of luck.........

I want to know who OKed to do away with Jesus Name Baptism and only repeat the command of Jesus instead of obeying it.........see.... AB .....the one who started all that is dead........

I am NOT in any taking a shot, I am just saying that I do not believe the one who started this false doctrine is on this forum...............

IAintMovin 11-01-2007 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290080)
The Questions still have not been answered. We all know what history says. We all know the definition of The Trinity.
I have not read a thing that I did not read 30 years ago when I first encountered a "Oneness Pentecostal".

We know that the early "Oneness" pioneers were not always "Oneness". When was that word coined?
Did the early "Oneness" pioneers that baptized in Jesus name say that the ones that stayed with the A/G believed in "Three God's"?

Somebody, somewhere knows where this stuff started and I want to know who started it. From all I have read - Haywood did not believe or preach that Trinitarians believed in Three God's. Did Andrew Urshan believe and preach this? Come on guys - you can do better than this. Tell the truth!
]I remember growing up many called us........ONELESS...........havent heard that one in a while..........

mizpeh 11-01-2007 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 290067)
When did it get started? Pretty much from the beginning. Gregory of Nyssa (died around 386) wrote an apologia entitled "On Not Three Gods."

When the Church's language made the shift from Greek to Latin, the "Fathers" began to use the Latin word "persona" instead of the Greek "prosopa."

Though both words had a similar meaning, in Latin philosophy "persona" was already developed to include the idea of "separate beings." The Greek "prosopa" didn't carry that baggage. So, in the West there was an almost immediate argument from some that the "Orthodox Christianity" of the Old Catholic Church was "tritheistic." Certain "heretics" of that time made the claim as did Jews and later Muslims. Many pagans remarked on what they saw as an inconsistency within Christian philosophy.

In many places orthodox believers themselves sometimes tended toward a tritheistic outlook as opposed to "what they're supposed to believe." Concerning Jesus Christ, the Nicene Creed states:

Today it's stated as, "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God..."

Add to that, the Holy Spirit,

and it's easy to see how even many Trinitarians get a tritheistic view. The language of the creeds inherently lends itself to the idea of "three seperate Beings who are all called "God."

The charge of "Tritheism" has been repeated by many since antiquity.
Thanks Pelathais, I was thinking along the same lines. There is nothing new under the sun. All these arguments have been going on for thousands of years. Tertullian responded to the same accusation of tritheism in Against Praxeas.

pelathais 11-01-2007 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290080)
The Questions still have not been answered. We all know what history says. We all know the definition of The Trinity.
I have not read a thing that I did not read 30 years ago when I first encountered a "Oneness Pentecostal".

We know that the early "Oneness" pioneers were not always "Oneness". When was that word coined?
Did the early "Oneness" pioneers that baptized in Jesus name say that the ones that stayed with the A/G believed in "Three God's"?

Somebody, somewhere knows where this stuff started and I want to know who started it. From all I have read - Haywood did not believe or preach that Trinitarians believed in Three God's. Did Andrew Urshan believe and preach this? Come on guys - you can do better than this. Tell the truth!
Most of the language came from older sources. People would do research and come up with the terminology from older debates. Most of it was from the Unitarian debates of the 19th Century. I'm at work right now, but I do remember reading how the term "Oneness" was carried over. There was an almost verbatum statemnent that many used that had been used by Unitarians earlier.

The fact of the matter is, "this stuff started" almost 2,000 years ago. We've just been rehashing it over and over again.

pelathais 11-01-2007 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 290085)
]I remember growing up many called us........ONELESS...........havent heard that one in a while..........
"This here is a oneless church, onliest way I know to be right..."

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 08:09 PM
9 Persons in the Godhead
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy (Post 290061)
Doesn't Bro. Benny teach in 9 or so manifestations?
He did this I think about 20 years ago - but then recanted and pulled all the books he wrote it in and had them reprinted without the "9 of them" theory in them. He did appear on TBN and taught this - I saw and heard him do it. After much rebuke - he issued a statement and recanted and denied believing that there were actually 9 persons in the Godhead.
As far as I can see - BH has been a true tritheist and actually believes there are three distinct flesh and blood persons in the Godhead. I do know some Apostolic (not YOUR BRAND) preachers/ministers that are influencing him on a regular basis and I find that INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hoovie 11-01-2007 08:20 PM
It is a lie. And yes the lying must stop if we desire to have any merit at all in theological discussions.


For those of you who have met "many... who believe very strongly in three gods" PLease post ONE single video clip of anyone of any stature at all in Christian circles, who confesses faith in three gods.

These clips should be easy to find - or do they only pledge their allegence after dark in debates with those evil One God folk??

If we get alot of response I will start a new thread to handle the videos...

revrandy 11-01-2007 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290092)
He did this I think about 20 years ago - but then recanted and pulled all the books he wrote it in and had them reprinted without the "9 of them" theory in them. He did appear on TBN and taught this - I saw and heard him do it. After much rebuke - he issued a statement and recanted and denied believing that there were actually 9 persons in the Godhead.
As far as I can see - BH has been a true tritheist and actually believes there are three distinct flesh and blood persons in the Godhead. I do know some Apostolic (not YOUR BRAND) preachers/ministers that are influencing him on a regular basis and I find that INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who??

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 290084)
I will say again.......I think that whoever started it is probably DEAD.........so you might just be out of luck.........

I want to know who OKed to do away with Jesus Name Baptism and only repeat the command of Jesus instead of obeying it.........see.... AB .....the one who started all that is dead........

I am NOT in any taking a shot, I am just saying that I do not believe the one who started this false doctrine is on this forum...............
This is the lie that is perpetrated and your generation and those that grew up in the UPC and Apostolic movement believe this lie because it is all you have ever heard (not you personally - but those that grew up in it).
It simply is not true.
At some point after 1914 - someone began to preach or teach this. We have some intelligent guys on this board that have sense enough and know history enough to know this did not start 2000 years ago.
It started after the New Issue and after the brothers walked out of the A/G and probably after the formation of the UPC. I would say in estimation - probably in the early 60's. Come on guys - You can do better than this.

Who started this lie? I can promise you - Somebody - somewhere Knows and I don't think that is was anybody on this board!!!!!!!!!!!!! How absurd!
Please don't start hurling accusations - its childish and avoidance of the questions.

JamDat 11-01-2007 08:44 PM
Up until I learned of the oneness of God I had believed that I would see three in heaven. Or at least two and that the Holy Ghost wouldn't of been able to be seen.

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 08:49 PM
I ain't tellin'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy (Post 290106)
Who??
I ain't tellin'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Quote:
I remember growing up many called us........ONELESS...........havent heard that one in a while..........
I have been called a ONELESS many times - especially up in the NE Tenn Mountains!!!!!!!!! ONELESS!

I had a little Church of God sister that would sneak over after their service and just shout and dance - she loved our church but would get me aside every once in a while and say (she never could pronounce my name) "Now Paster - if I ever find out that your a one of them ONELESS preachers - I am OUTTA here!" She said the COG preacher told her all the time that I was one of them there - ONELESS preachers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bless her heart - One Sunday morning at the close of the service - sitting on the front row - she turned and hugged the sister behind her with a big smile and said - PRAISE THE LORD - she threw up her hands - praising God and fell to her knees with a massive heart attack. Incidentally - it was this ONELESS preacher that preached her funeral!
Oh Touch your neighbor and say - I ain't a ONELESS!!!!! :pirate

The Dean 11-01-2007 08:50 PM
Whether they call it 'three gods' or 'three persons' it's still a lie from the pits of Hell.

Most of the trinitarians that I'm friends with are quick to tell you about three persons in one god. I'm sorry folks, but that is too close to damnable heresy for me to be comfortable climbing in the saddle with them.

mizpeh 11-01-2007 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 290096)
It is a lie. And yes the lying must stop if we desire to have any merit at all in theological discussions.


For those of you who have met "many... who believe very strongly in three gods" PLease post ONE single video clip of anyone of any stature at all in Christian circles, who confesses faith in three gods.

These clips should be easy to find - or do they only pledge their allegence after dark in debates with those evil One God folk??

If we get alot of response I will start a new thread to handle the videos...
The simple! The simple started this lie according to Tertullian:

The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true ...

http://www.christiandefense.org/Tertullian.Prax.htm#2 (see first line in chapt three.)

Of course The SIMPLE are not considered of any stature at all in Christian circles. :bubble

freeatlast 11-01-2007 08:59 PM
I was told by some folks I met knocking on doors in Pensacola, FL. that they were trinity and that they believed in three Gods.

That was the only time i ever heard a trinitarian claim this.

There a many trinitarins that will tell you the believe in only one God, and would fight if you told them they believed in three.

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 09:00 PM
Who Started The LIE?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 290122)
Whether they call it 'three gods' or 'three persons' it's still a lie from the pits of Hell.

Most of the trinitarians that I'm friends with are quick to tell you about three persons in one god. I'm sorry folks, but that is too close to damnable heresy for me to be comfortable climbing in the saddle with them.
This is the problem exactly - you know its a lie and you wont address it because you are threatened by the answer!
I am secure enough in my belief in the Revelation of Jesus Christ that I am not threatened theologically. The Revelation I have came from GOD and not a ONENESS Bible school teacher that had been taught by another ONENESS Bible School teacher that had been taught by another ONENESS Bible School teacher.

Why do you think that someone is asking you to be "comfortable in climbing in the saddle with them"? No one is asking that!

I am just asking WHO STARTED THE LIE?????????????

We all have sense enough and have heard it a million times or more and know the TRINITARIAN doctrine more than the Trinitarians themselves.
THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!!

You might want to read the questions again.
WHO STARTED THE LIE?

StillStanding 11-01-2007 09:07 PM
My father, who had many debates with trinitarians, admitted to me in his later years that the difference in oneness and many trinitarians was parsing of words. The understanding of one God was the same.

What oneness folks called three manifestations, the trinnies called three persons. When asked to explain, the ideas were near identical.

freeatlast 11-01-2007 09:10 PM
Po tat-oes Pa- tat-oes

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 09:11 PM
I think some need to read the first post again and answer the question!

The Dean 11-01-2007 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290128)
This is the problem exactly - you know its a lie and you wont address it because you are threatened by the answer!
I am secure enough in my belief in the Revelation of Jesus Christ that I am not threatened theologically. The Revelation I have came from GOD and not a ONENESS Bible school teacher that had been taught by another ONENESS Bible School teacher that had been taught by another ONENESS Bible School teacher.

Why do you think that someone is asking you to be "comfortable in climbing in the saddle with them"? No one is asking that!

I am just asking WHO STARTED THE LIE?????????????

We all have sense enough and have heard it a million times or more and know the TRINITARIAN doctrine more than the Trinitarians themselves.
THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!!

You might want to read the questions again.
WHO STARTED THE LIE?
I know what is a lie? The trinity?

That may well be the only thing I've agreed with you about in a while.

revrandy 11-01-2007 09:22 PM
AB...

Your "pointed" question is certainly not without innocence..that is no LIE...

I could understand your premise but in principle it doesn't really require an answer...

the fact is Trinity is certainly a false Doctrine and should be regarded as such... if we were to apply that same fellowship issues (that you certainly are discussing in this) across the board then all Trinitarians should be acceptable... Jehovah Witness....Mormons...and so forth....

Why draw the line with just a few?

ThePastorsCoach 11-01-2007 09:27 PM
Are the ones that preached this lie and told their people that Trinitarians believe in THREE GOD'S avoiding the question?

You guys are putting up a good smoke screen and doing what you do every week - saying the same old thing over and over and over and doing your best to convince people of what you know is NOT TRUE!
You know that Trinitarians do not believe in Three God's.

I challenge you to pick up the phone and call 5 or 10 Churches tomorrow and just ask them the question - Do you believe in Three God's?

Call the A/G, COG, PH, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, Charismatic, and ask them "DO YOU BELIEVE IN THREE GOD'S?"and them post on this thread what the answer to the question is.

You won't do it because you know what they will say - NO - We believe in ONE GOD.
Face it guys - you know somebody has lied and you won't admit it!

THE DEAN - Call your friend and ask him if he believes in THREE GOD'S? If he says NO - tell him you been preaching to your people that he believes in THREE GOD'S. Will you (not addressing THE DEAN here) tell the other pastors in town that you preach that they believe in THREE GOD'S????

Who started this lie that Trinitarians believe in THREE GOD'S?

revrandy 11-01-2007 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290155)
Are the ones that preached this lie and told their people that Trinitarians believe in THREE GOD'S avoiding the question?

You guys are putting up a good smoke screen and doing what you do every week - saying the same old thing over and over and over and doing your best to convince people of what you know is NOT TRUE!
You know that Trinitarians do not believe in Three God's.

I challenge you to pick up the phone and call 5 or 10 Churches tomorrow and just ask them the question - Do you believe in Three God's?

Call the A/G, COG, PH, Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, Charismatic, and ask them "DO YOU BELIEVE IN THREE GOD'S?"and them post on this thread what the answer to the question is.

You won't do it because you know what they will say - NO - We believe in ONE GOD.
Face it guys - you know somebody has lied and you won't admit it!
THE DEAN - Call you friend and ask him if he believes in THREE GOD'S? If he says NO - tell him you been preaching to your people that he believes in THREE GOD'S. Will you tell the other pastors in town that you preach that they believe in THREE GOD'S????

Who started this lie that Trinitarians believe in THREE GOD'S?
Then Ask them who Jesus is...and who the Holy Ghost is...

I don't think any of them would say three Gods... but I would be interested in knowing who Jesus is to them...

Neck 11-01-2007 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop (Post 290032)
This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?


Then how do you explain that they do believe that this God is in three person's.

The word Trinty means 3.

The very idea that 3 person's co-equally existing together but having different functions while still being one God?

3 seperate but co-equal persons adding up to one God?

There is One God, we should not divide him up into a counsel of person's.

Hear O Israel the Lord our God is One.

You can call him by many attributes and not be dividing him into person's.

When the father turns his head, does the head of Jesus and the HG turn?

If your answer would be no by logic?

Then would there not be 3 Gods? If you believe there are 3 person's?

I believe when the Father turns his head he is turning the head of Jesus and the Holy Ghost because in the order of expression.

Jesus being the expressed image then what you see of God is one head turning...

Oh well....

Sheltiedad 11-01-2007 09:34 PM
If Jesus was only the physical manifestation of God, then why is the human shell that he inhabited still necessary?

*Running away as fast as I can* :D

chosenbyone 11-01-2007 09:34 PM
AB,

You're question of who started the lie of there being three Gods would lead back to many COG and AOG churches. I have had family on both my mother and father's side of the family who attended those churches and to many the Godhead was a mystery, indeed.

My mother when asked how many thrones were in heaven replied, "There are three thrones, one for the Father, one for the Son and one for the Holy Ghost". The confusion wasn't the fault of the ones who have had a revelation of the Oneness of God, but from the very pulpit of those that have been leading their followers in this erroneous doctrine.

Nahum 11-01-2007 09:35 PM
Anyone who believes in a god in/as three persons...coequal, coexistent, coeternal, believes in three separate entities - or three gods.

The concept is of God as a team.

It is tritheism.

I will readily agree that the majority of Protestant laypersons do not believe in three gods. But the official dogma of trinitarians is obviously tritheistic.

Neck 11-01-2007 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheltiedad (Post 290160)
If Jesus was only the physical manifestation of God, then why is the human shell that he inhabited still necessary?

*Running away as fast as I can* :D
Your statement is confusing since your question holds it's own answer?


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