New Believer's Question ........
 

We have a Chinese student living with us and tonight he asked me a question that I'm a little hard pressed to answer so hoping for a little help from some of you who I know are able to give a good answer.

He's reading through the OT and today was reading some scripture where David was praying and asking God for victory in battle and the victory was promised him.

Eric wants to know why if God loves everybody He would allow those outside of the chosen nation to be murdered and killed by His own people? He feels that the wars and battles fought in the OT and approved and in fact directed by God Himself are in sharp contrast with the teaching of the NT.

How would you answer Eric?

Many of us have wondered about that too Felicity.. hope somebody can give a good answer

Could it be that perhaps that these instances in the OT. were cases of God's judgement being poured out on the disobedient ?

Well, this kid said he was "troubled" by what he read and to be honest I didn't have a great answer to give him, at least not one that I feel does the question justice or that I myself am satisfied with.

The answers that I come up with just leave a lot of holes ..... and in turn spawn more questions.

Sometimes the OT. is puzzling like the part of folks marrying relatives, or in the flood thinking about children being drowned.
Oh well we'll understand it better bye and bye.

Incoming message from MissBratfield....soon we'll know the answer

Not a lot of time tonight so I will answer with this: The OT is a type and shadow of the NT. The physical wars we see fought in the OT are a type of the spiritual wars we fight today. OT was fought in flesh and blood. NT says: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph 6:12). I hope this helps.

That was part of my answer but I'm still not completely satisfied with the explanation.

See if I was Eric I'd be thinking ......

"Yeah but the fact is .... a God of love who loved the whole world so much He gave His life for it gave the command that all His enemies be slaughtered and by those who served Him. Seems like a total contradiction."

Some people will point out how wicked the nations that dwelt in the land of Canaan were. This, we are told, is why God commanded Israel to "drive" them out of Canaan. In Genesis there is a note (Genesis 15:16) that in the days of Abraham the "iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full..." This seems to indicate that the people were given a time (at least 490 years) to repent. A part of God's patience toward the Canaanites resulted in causing the enslavement and suffering of Israel in Egypt. That kind of "turn about" is worth noting.

Later, under David's rule when all of the land was secured and God had given him peace, David went about "numbering" the people. In Israel the people were "numbered" for only two reasons, taxation and war. Since it was David's military commander, Joab who complained it seems that David was planning upon a war of expansion. He was intending to go beyond the territory that God had prescribed to Israel. Just planning such a war resulted in a terrible judgement against Israel.

Later, when Israel and Judah both began acting just like the nations that their forebears had driven out of the land, God drove Israel out of the land using the Assyrians and Babylonians. God apparenty wasn't playing favorites when it came to nations keeping His commandments.

I don't have all the answers and began to write, but it seemed inane...let me think about it today, and hopefully the great minds here will provide an answer.

Well, for one, the new testament was when the dispensation of grace started, and everything changed, including salvation.

we are all now given the chance to become Gods chosen.

In the OT everyone else were just outsiders. God defends his own, in the OT, and even now.

I've asked all these questions before, all that ever comes back is you have to have faith and pray about it... no one seems to have any real answers for any hard questions.

For example, given the scenarios presented above, do the non-Jews in the OT have souls? If so, are they all burning in hell without ever having been given instruction on how to be saved? And if that is the case, how can God be just?

Sister the thing about the Old Testament is that God had never come in flesh before.Now He has and now He knows what its like to be a man with all of the feelings of our infirmaties etc the bible says.Remember that they could not enter into His presense without dying unless they were covered in blood
on the day of atonement.Sin could not enter into Gods presence.That is why
Adam and Eve were cast out.Sin cannot live in the light of Gods presence.Its why we need a Savior.This is a good thing that this young man is asking this.We serve the same God who created the world.He is not a man that He can lie.Its a good discussion with a new christian.He is trying to reconcile the God of creation with the God of Salvation.It can open up a great door for the revelation of who Jesus is.

LOL. No, I started to type an answer and then decided mine wasn't very good either. I'm still mulling it over.

My answer to him would be did not "God" raise such a people of multi-color?

The United States of America to defeat the greatest Jew killer of all-time.
Adolf Hitler.

God made a promise to Abraham that his seed would be the chosen.

It came out of the relationship he had with God.

If any nation would humble itself and turn towards the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

He would heal their people and their land.

In the old and new testement it came down to a relationship with God.

Not sure if it is an answer he can accept but is my thoughts.

Did not those people see the access of the true God. The God of Israel the mighty power to defeat them?

They had a decision and choose to worship idles.

They all had a form of religion.

They did not however understand that the God of Israel was the almighty.

As they went into battle against Israel they soon found out.

Then when Israel moved away from God from king to king.

Did they not also suffer defeat.

Add up the years they were in bondage and ask yourself was God always on their side?

It is about a realtionship with God on a daily basis.

Not even about being chosen.

it is about where you are in Christ on a daily basis...

I wish I could answer that...

The fact is, God is a jealous God who will judge. He does judge in fairness.

Before one can understand what seems to us to be meanness from God in the Old Testament, one must first understand the worthlessness and sinfulness of man that deserves such judgment.

Th focus should be Christ, our advocate. He is loving, compassionate, and merciful even though we don't deserve it.

He must understand that God is true to his Word. He only responded to the bad choices of men. He was however, kind enough to send us His Son as an advocate.

The other element is faith, we walk by faith and not by sight. We can never really understand all of this, we must simply except it. One day we will understand it.

Or one that I've pondered recently: If there is a hell, how just could that be? Eternal punishment for life lived in at most a century? How is that just?

I respect you but you didn't answer my question... I personally believe it is unanswerable and was posting it as an example. Even in your post above, the Jews had a choice on an individual level whether to serve God or not. The other people didn't... and to say that those people would recognize the true God after his people had slaughtered them and taken their women and children to be used as slaves, well, I'm not so sure.

You know better than to get me started... :)

Doesn't God give everyone a space to repent?
Didn't Jesus go preach to those in hell (the holding place after death, not eternal judgement) and took captivity captive?

I think the "relationship" aspect has more potential than anything else. God in the OT was nothing if not a God of contradictions. Even amidst His own strict rules and laws, He would step beyond them if a person or group of people turned to Him.

Maybe its a controversial statement, but aren't Jews more of a religious persuasion and culture than race? That is, anyone who converts to Judaism, is essentially a Jew. Or am I wrong on that point?

Regardless, in the OT, God showed mercy to people outside of the Jews, IF they turned to Him. E.g., Ninevah, Ruth, Rahab, etc. (Were the Ninevans Jews or Heathens? Were they heathens only because they didn't worship God?)

And, if everyone came from Adam, then essentially everyone started out with the same free will to choose God, and by the choices they made or their ancestors made, they ended up in a different place. I don't see in scripture where God set aside a little group from the very beginning, and said, "I'm only going to love you, everyone else I will hate." No, people set themselves apart, like Cain and Esau.

Keep Eric away from Exodus 7-12. And Isaiah 13:16. And Numbers 31. And Acts 5.

For starters.

This is very good Abigail and is part of what I was thinking in regard to Eric's question.

I didn't get into this though last evening because I wasn't sure just how to present it in a way he - whose 2nd languge is English and is still learning and who is also a very new believer (16 yrs old) --- would be able to understand and comprehend.

He's a smart boy and he's doing great learning our language but some of this is a little complex in communicating to someone like him.

Thanks for articulating so well. :)

Thanks to everyone else too! I'm still reading and thinking. :)

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Ok. Read 1 Sam 17:9.

Goliath said, "send a man to fight me". If he kills me "we" will be your servants.

Then David goes by way of faith.

Goliath looked at at David in verse 42 and he distained him..

The philistine then cursed David "by his gods"!

Come to me and I will give thy flesh unto the fowl of the air and the beast of the field..

David then says, Thou comest to me with a sword and with a spear, and shield:

But I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts the "God" of the armies of Israel whom thou hast defiled.

Verse 46: all the earth may know that there is a God of Israel.

David then slew Goliath.

Did the Philistines do what Goliath stated, "We will become your slaves".

No they cut and ran.

They had a choice after seeing the mighty God of Israel kill their main man.

They ran....

Sounds like a lot of folks today.

Then you have the minstry of that day "Saul".

He promised his daughter to the man that would slay Goliath.

Saul who was to give his daughter or the future path to the throne.

But what did Saul do in the next chapter of 1 Samuel?

He seeks to kill David.

That souds much like the folks in our ranks today.

As long as you are not out in front folks love you.

Rise to the occassion and then folks want to tear you down.

The four hebrew children went into the fire before Nebuchadnezar saw the
4th man in the fire.

Today the land of Nebuchadnezer is where we are fighting a war in Iraq.

Seeing the 4th man in the fire and seeing a mighty warriar die in battle.

Still did not turn then towards God.

He did however reveal himself to them..

The problem was many of the kings and years of the children of Israel were led by men like Saul....

It is our own fault in many ways the world does not see the mighty God of Israel...........

Thanks for all your comments bro.

It's not so much that he wouldn't "accept". It's just that he's so new to the Christian faith and trying to explain this in a way that makes sense and that will satisfy his need to know why our God would act in this way.

I think that part of what I need to do is point out that as much as God is a God of judgment and war He's also a God so rich in mercy and grace and kindness and love .......... and emphasize the way that he gave people ample opportunity time and time again to repent and turn to Him.

And the fact that there is punishment in regard to disobeying the law and commands of God.

This is all part of whatever answer he's given I think.

I told him I was going to get some contribution of ideas from others before I talked to him more about it.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed.

I'm still hoping for more input and perspective on this.

It is a hard question to answer for a new convert. I would be very careful as well. My comments were more geared towards answering comments made on the thread...

Nathan Eckstadt

Yes, Abi...as I understand it, they are Hebrew by reason of birth, a Jew by reason of religious belief...and good post btw.

As for the subject at hand, Felicity, I have thought about it most of the day and am no further ahead with an answer than I was at 3:00 this morning.

I just keep thinking about the Cross...what a different world it was before God made Himself a body and came to this earth, and what a difference His precious Blood has meant to mankind.

Not exactly the answers young Eric is looking for I guess, but what has been with me all day...

I guess God didn't love the heathens in the OT as much as he loves the heathens today, after all, they get a chance to be saved, but the OT ones, they got nothing but mass slaughter. Not only is that not loving, but its certainly not just.

I should have known you beat me too this! LOL

As I was out and about not long ago, this thread came to mind.

Some of the posts here (Abi's in particular) have been very good and I hope they were a help to you in trying to explain it all to Eric.

As for me, I can't seem to get away from the Cross...as a matter of fact, a song I haven't heard in years came to my mind, and I can't even remember the words except for this line..."the way of the Cross leads home."

Don't know how it relates except it's what I think about when your post comes to mind.

I'm wondering too if perhaps he should be reading the Book of John...just my thoughts...

I liked this answer and most of Abigail's answer. I would add that today we can't even begin to fatham what a dog eat dog world tribal warfare used to be!

I saw the movie "Apocalypto" by Mel Gibson about the Mayan Indians in Central/South America. Wow. What an eye opener.

Villages slaughtered; kidnapped, sold into slavery and used as sacrafice for worship IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE.

Is it possible that it was nations that likewise were so savage that God told Israel to destroy them? Was it nations that had already brutally destroyed other tribes and people?

Consider that Israel was told to treat aliens well who were in their midst because they had one time been aliens in Egypt. Consider that they did not attempt to destroy Egypt but rather only sought to leave it behind.

Just a thought about a world we can't fatham at this point in time... :cool:

If one nation is coming against another with intent to conquer or destroy, there's absolutely nothing unjust about using deadly force to defend your own nation. That is the scenerio here with David and Israel.

That's a really interesting point. Life must have been so brutal! And I think it corresponds to the idea that all men were created equal...that is, I think God had no heathens vs. the Good Ones in the beginning. Everyone was free to choose their path, just as they are now. The end result is still the same, even if there may have been more brutality along the way in times past. (Eternal life or eternal damnation) Some of the posters on this thread seem to think that God has set up man to fail, and that he set aside a group of fall guys from day 1. I don't see that as being the case.

Okay, which part of my post DON'T you like? :D Answer me, Newman, I can't stand it!

Mel's movie was a great acheivement- in particular the work of the actors. The historical gaffes were egregious- the Mayans were generally less aggressive than portrayed and the Spanish didn't suddenly appear on the Mayan shores at the time of the Mayan collapse- 1100 -1200 A.D.

The whole thing would have worked better with the Aztecs, that's an accurate portrayal, despite what some of their 20th century apologists would say. And the capture of an enemy for either "sport" (torture) or human sacrifice was a common theme in many cultures that practiced that ritual. But the withered corn crops and plague were a part of the Mayan collapse and not the Aztec.

Still, if you sort out the intentional "liberties" the producers and writers took, it is an incredible accounting of Meso-America before the arrival of the Europeans. Other themes that were similar was the conquest of the rather peaceful Arawak by the canniblistic Caribs. The Europeans were actually putting an end to genocide when small pox inadvertantly finished what the Caribs had started.

The movie 1492: Conquest of Paradise got it so wrong in the way that the producers sought to blame everything on the Europeans. That is one film that actually stands out as racist propaganda.

In addition to Pelathais' first post, God uses what he made to punish sinful mankind on the earth. He used a flood of water, fire and brimstone and he uses these:

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

He has every right to do as He sees fit since He is the righteous judge of the whole earth. People wonder why there is so much evil in the world and why it seems nothing is done about it. God has promised us we will see the reward of the wicked come upon them and the righteous prosper. Seeing these things come to pass takes patient waiting on the Lord and observation.

I guess I'm saying some wars (the sword) are the sword of the Lord taking revenge upon the sin of a people. A lot of this can be taken from reading about Assyria and Babylon in the OT prophets, the destruction they caused upon sinful nations, including Judah and Israel, which God states is a result of His direction and then God's retribution on Assyria and Babylon for their pride.

Ultimately in this life and in the next we will reap what we sow.

MissBrattifield- I thought your point about God showing mercy to non-Jews that turned to Him to be right on the money and something I had never considered before.

However, I am not as comfortable with the last paragraph although I can't say its technically wrong in what it actually said.

Yet, it seems to me that God did indeed set Israel apart from the beginning; if not loving them more; at the very least intending to use them to point the way to Christ.

And so God blessed Abraham's seed that all the nations of the earth would be blessed in him (Genesis 18:18) and told the Israelites that if they kept His commandments, "ye shall be a peculiar people ABOVE all people..." (Ex19:5).

So overall; I think that we must find that Israel at the very least; had a headstart. :cool:

pelathais- Wow! Do you teach history? All I know is that I was stunned by the movie and the brutality of tribal warfare and survival from long ago. It helped me see the OT in a new light. :cool: