Who is/was the Greatest Reformer of the Christian Faith?
 

Beginning immediately after the era of Constantine, who is/was the greatest reformer of the Christian faith?

Feel free to tell us who you chose, and why.

Julian the Apostate

Are you saying the reformation, while well intended was/is miss guided?

I guess I wasn't saying anything, really CJ. It's just PP said "beginning right after Constantine..." and the first "reformer" that came to mind "right after Constantine" was his nephew Julian.

... but crakjak asked about my thoughts on the Reformation ...

The Reformation that we generally look at was the movement instigated by Martin Luther's revolt against Rome. The subject is complex and already fills volumes, one can't help but resort to generalizations here. The Protestant Reformation was of course preceded by many attempts at reform. Most of those reformations (including Luther's) ended up being associated with social reform movements like the Peasant Revolt.

In the 1200-1300's there was the Hussite reform that was centered in Bohemia. This reform was accompanied by a movement to reform the election of the Holy Roman Emperor and a communistic movement that became known as the Taborites. Land reform was their goal more than Spiritual concerns. It took three crusades to put this down.

Luther's reform led inexorably to the 30 Years' War; perhaps the most destructive European conflict up until WW1.

To say any of this was "misguided" would imply that other historical events are guided. At the risk of creating offense, and because there's no way I could adequately explain myself; let me say that human movements such as these are best understood by looking at the causes and their results. A storm is not "misguided" even if you have to bear the brunt of its surge. An earthquake isn't misguided. So also, in the political realm, storms like the Protestant Reformation were neither guided nor misguided - they just happened when there was enough pressure behind them to cause the event.

We can "judge" the individuals and look for heroes and villians. But we cannot judge the storm. It just happens.

Are you a Deist, Pelathais? Did God get the ball started and then take his hands off it and let come what may? Or is He intimately involved in the direction of events of the world we live in?

Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Reform rarely ends well for all involved.

Many people who say they are Theists talk and act like Deists. :bubble

In the first paragragh you give me something of a false dilemma. So, let me restate your question:

Either pelathais is a deist or he believes that an angry and easily irritated God kills small children. Which of these best describes me?

As I said in the post, I don't think I can adequately explain this issue within the small confines of this little box into which I am typing. Unlike some who would misquote Nahum, I do not attribute the wrath of a storm to the "wrath of God." I have seen the devastation of storms (both natural and political) and I am persuaded that the morality of God is at a higher plane than that of an oversized and ill mannered King Kong-like beast. :)

Deism is a subset of theism.

I was responding to the part I highlighted in your post....."it just happens" as though perhaps God is on a vacation and doesn't know/doesn't care and isn't really the ruler of the nations (setting some up, putting some down). I took you to be saying storms just happen and God has nothing to do with them, likewise evil happens and God is not involved whatsoever or perhaps He turns a blind eye.

I believe God sends rain on the just and the unjust and sometimes sends famine on the unjust, or pestilence, or sword, as chastisement. I believe it because I find it in the Bible. I agree that God is on a higher moral plane than we are and is not an ill tempered beast. He is just and holy.

I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Isa 45:19

I quoted Nahum verbatim. I did not misquote him. If you're saying my understanding of that verse is incorrect, please tell me why you think that.

Though both believe in God as creator...that is pretty much where it ends.

Maybe we should move to another thread. PP wanted a vote on "best Reformer" and not a debate on theodicy. It's my fault to straying.

Involving "one of the biggest tragedies in our movement?" :wacko

It was not a reference to you, goofball ... you know that ...

Teachers and other professionals are continously learning ... We have professional development throughout the year .... on many occassions ...

Ministers would benefit immensely from continuous education .... many have to float on their own ... the fellowship needs to focus a whole lot more on this ... it's more than having a recommended reading list. But that's a different thread.

:stirpot

The point I was trying to make had to do with "It just happens" not theodicy.

I guess I'll go vote for the best reformer. It's sad that after the reform the modern version of the churches some of those reformers started doesn't resemble their beginnings. Would Luther feel at home in a Lutheran church? Would Wesley feel at home in a Methodist church?

Do you think modern day apostolics resemble the apostolic church of the book of Acts?

The "it just happens" debate leads me to question God's justice in mercilessly killing small children in the violent storms that He unleashes and then guides with unerring accuracy right at the place where the innocent ones have tried to seek shelter. Since I don't accept that God is in the storm, the fire from heaven or these other physical phenomena, I don't have a problem accepting Him as just everytime a child dies a cruel and painful death due to malevolent weather.

And, yes and no to the last question. If an Apostle from the 1st century was to walk up to a group of us baptizing a convert in the river, they would probably understand what was going on. If they were in a fiesty mood that might ask why we didn't baptize the convert "correctly" however. I mean, who is "Gee-sus"? The Apostles used the name "Eashoa'."

Since you don't accept that God has anything to do with the storm, then what do you think Nahum meant?

Do you accept God rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gommorrah and commanded the Israelites to kill everyone including children when they took the land through the leadership of Joshua as a judgement for their sins?

Do you think Paul baptized Greek speaking Gentiles in the Hebraic name or the Greek name for Jesus?

Are you trying to pick a fight with me? LOL!

For Paul it was probably some Creole type of combo language unless he was consciously trying to be formal. Besides, he didn't usually do the large scale baptisms. He appears to have baptized a few of the early converts in an area and then turned the work over to the locals.

If a guy named Carl goes to Mexico, does his name change to Carlos?

Probably not to people who know him personally...

I believe Puritan theology and tradition still pervades Christianity in America.

The contributions of those great minds is remarkable.

The Puritans claimed to want what many AFF posters say they want - religion without all of the bells and whistles. Something simple, pure and steadfast.

But if he baptised in Mexico in the name of Jesus Christ or Jesucristo?

Not sure any of the listed folks had "true" christian faith, so I can't vote.

I think it would make Daniel happy! :hypercoffee

My name is James or Jim in English. In Spanish it would be Diego or Jaime. The only people that I have baptized are English speakers. I have never baptized a Spanish speaking person but I have prayed for some while I was in Mexico and also here in Ohio. When I have prayed in Spanish, I used the name "Jesus" in Spanish. If I were to baptize a Spanish speaking person I would probably use English but I might use Spanish. So, depending on which language I used, the name Jesus would be different in English or Spanish but it would still refer to Jesucristo, nuestro Dios y nuestro Salvador.

Rkentsmith is the greatest reformer.

Who is/was the greatest reformer of the Apostolic/Pentecostal faith?

This is not meant to hijack this thread.

Nathaniel Urshan

Billy Seymour

King James

Too bad none of those listed experienced Bible salvation or preached the salvation message preached by the Apostle.

Anthony Mangun? I believe he has full salvation and is visionary :hanky

Tell us from the Amen corner how we can find this salvation?