Standards protect inward holiness!!!!!
 

I am so frustrated with people today!

Why is it that when anyone of our people (Ladies especially) hold up "traditional" standards of dress they are automatically deemed as unfashionable?

My good wife wears skirts well below her knees and she is extremely fashionable. She does not look frumpy, weird, old lady or anything!

She looks like a lady who is worshipping her God in the beauty of holiness. Just because she doesn't have a tug-of-war match with her skirt every service does not make her archaic!

And this is not about my wife. I am using her as an example.

And just who determines fashion anyway? Is it a Spirit filled, modesty loving person? I don't think so! So why do we attempt to measure up to them?

I remember a scripture that says We are in the world but not of the world!

Why is there an assault on the holiness loving people that uphold outward standards to protect inward holiness? And why are these assualts coming from those that once were apart of us?

If you want to be charismatic then be charismatic but please stop trying to shove your so called "liberty" down my throat!!!!

There I think my rant is over!

Well, you certainly don't have to be immodest to look attractive or to be *gasp* fashionable. I'll agree with you there. IF that's what you're saying.

There IS, however, a problem with women not knowing how to dress themselves beautifully--but they probably dressed the same frumpy way when they weren't Christians! Not everyone gets style, or knows how to look like Audrey Hepburn Goes To Church. :)

Folks should look around: There are plenty of stuffy frumpy women at the mall, at Target, at Marie Callendars for lunch...it isn't an Apostolic problem. It is very irritating when Apostolic women are labelled as if they are the only ones who ever wore a Granny sweater. I really don't see where salvation has much to do with changing a person's taste in clothing, or opening their eyes and showing them a bright light from heaven, flashing the words, What Not To Wear.

Those frumpy women would still be frumpy in their "Mom" jeans. :D

Fashion is fickle and ever changing. A comparatively small segment of our society makes a huge amount of money by influencing the fickle changes. There is huge competition in this industry to control the next style fad. Did you see that huge diamond that was sold at auction the other day? The buyer is the Guess Jeans fashion designer.

None of this answers your question, but even if your wife (and mine!) wore Guess Jeans or any other type of "popular fashion" they would feel the same pressures. No matter what you do, you're not doing it right according to someone who stands to make a buck if you change your habits.

It's like Ozzy and Harriet's little boy, Ricky used to sing: "You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself."

If you feel that you're pleasing God, and if that is pleasing to you; then carry on.

The problem as I see it is there generally isn't much of a middle ground. You have those who are stylish and look very classy following "holiness standards" and you have those who look frumpy.

IMO, it is more difficult for a woman to dress "casual" while following standards without looking frumpy. If you need to wear comfortable shoes (i.e. tennis shoes), they often don't look that great with a skirt.

My thoughts are some women don't know how to dress stylish. It wouldn't matter if they were or were not in a standard preaching church.

What does gripe me is when a women enters into a standard teaching church and then lets herself go i.e. dressing sloppy, etc. I have seen this happen many times.

"Standards PROTECT inward holiness"

But do they PROJECT inward holiness?

What we call standards shouldn't have much to do with "frumpiness" or how we look to others. Wouldn't that be a matter of pride? What we call standards should be about how we appear to God. I look frumpy in anything I wear!

This usually starts happening immediately after they "get their man!" and say their vows if you know what I mean. LOL And I have seen it MANY times (in fact a majority) myself.

The answer is quite the opposite. In most cases it provides a FEELING (or an illusion) that the inward holiness is there, without it actually being so. All because the attention is so laser focused on the externals based on a written or unwritten church rule book.

Amen! I remember thinking "oh I'm going to heaven I don't cut my hair, where pants, etc.". But know what? my insides were ugly. Standards do not protect inward holiness. You have to work on that daily. With prayer, devotions, worship, and all that good stuff.

Why would outward holiness protect inward holiness....I think its the other way around myself....because my heart is holy...Jesus makes me holy, loving Him, believing in Him, that is what makes me holy...not the clothes I wear...being immodest is not anything that has been pushed on here...just some of us don't feel a dress is any holier than other types of clothing...

Amen ... amen and amen ... the article of clothing ain't holy ... it's Him that is within us.

I believe that we can set up boundaries to protect ourselves (and others) from personal weaknesses. But I don't believe that the boundaries in and of themselves are reflective of holiness, and in some cases, they serve instead to mask private corruption.

Nothing wrong with dressing a certain way, and I don't think anyone on this forum would argue with that fact.

What we do argue with is the very title of your thread - STANDARDS PROTECT INWARD HOLINESS.

This is one of the most erroneous statements I've ever read, and I'd really be interested on whatever scriptures you may use to back this statement up.

NOWHERE in scripture does the Bible even allude to the fact that an outward appearance can PROTECT an inward holiness.

Maybe I just overlooked the scriptures............I eagerly await your response.

I think in some cases it is because people are being forced to dress in a way that is not their personality. It's hard to be creative when you are only wearing things because people tell you that you are supposed to. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone or not.

For example, if I have never worn a suit before, but suddenly find that I am required to wear one, I would do it, but would not know how to tie a tie, would probably use a clip-on, would not even know about the different types of dress shirts and cuff-link options, etc.

Yes, some people just know how to dress sharp, no matter what they are wearing, and some people know how to dress sharp when it is something that they enjoy wearing, and some people just don't care about dressing sharp at all.

Personally, I wear cargo shorts, sandals and short sleeve shirts 99% of the time now. I don't see any point in wearing anything else.

By the way, and I don't mean to be nit-picky but.....

Is this really (in bold) in the Bible?

Maybe you are thinking of...

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

This is a valid point. Some folks just don't know how to put sharp outfits together, especially when they've dressed one way all their lives, and switch to a new mode of dress.

Cargo shorts, sandals and short sleeve shirts? SD, are you a frumpy dresser? :D

In the military, there were the guys who just wore what was issued to them, and then there were the guys who would go buy the special shoes, and special uniforms which were authorized but were not actually issued. Then there were the people who refused to buy the special uniforms, but would spend hours shining their shoes and starching and ironing their uniforms so that they could be more elitist than the ones who "paid" for their uniforms to look so good.

If I'm frumpy it is because I wear what my wife picks out for me (she buys clothes for me that she likes, I rarely buy my own clothes anymore). Since I work from home most of the time, you're lucky to get a collared short sleeve shirt and cargo shorts, it is usually basketball shorts with paint on them and a t-shirt... :D Unfortunately I am on a business trip so I had to wear clothes today. :D

:hanky:yourock:highfive:clap:shockamoo:iagree
:hanky:yourock:highfive:clap:shockamoo:iagree

When the inside is right it will show up on the outside!

I am not saying that clothes make you holy. Standards are not holiness.

It's all about boundaries in our life that assist in protecting holiness. And if done correctly, when holiness is inside first then outward standards will project holiness. When done the other way around they are just standards for standards sake.

I think that outward "standards" can sometimes be a facade of holiness, while inside holiness is lacking.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I agree with the highlighted statement above!

The problem is allowing people to let God help them determine what is modest and moderate dress. If they don't line up to YOUR interpretation, then you don't think they are holy on the inside.

Dear Brother. Take a deep breath. Relax. No one you should not be frustrated. Those that have an opposite view to your view are not being rude they are being honest in what they believe. I feel you are too. We have that right. It is an open forum we can agree or disagree. I am charismatic and so are others on here. We are no more tying to 'shove' our 'liberty' down your throat that you are trying to 'shove' your view of holiness down ours. Look we do not agree that is fine. I do not want to convert you to anything. You may want to convert me back to 'bundage'. Not gonna happen on either front.

Now to address the 'Standards protect inward Holiness' thing. I have heard this down through the years. That is not altogether true. For me I can be just as unholy or holy wearing pants as I can wearing shorts. I know people that are soooooo conservative in dress because it is 'sin' but they are porn addicts. I know people that dress what you would term immodest but the most faithful, spiritual, holy people you could meet. Now get me right I am not saying that there is any realtion to standards and hidden sin. I am not saying that, but I know that some people seem to look like they are full of the HG cause they dress a certain way, but are full of nothing but sin. That is way what Darcie said is so true. You can look right and be empty inside.

My good brother, not to split hairs here, but outward standards cannot protect inward holiness. That's a fallacy, and it's been propogated far too long.

Your first statement is absolutely correct. The converse of that statement is absolutely incorrect.

When the inside is right, it shows on the outside. When the outside is "right" it doesn't automatically show up on the inside.

In my opinion, that's been one of the problems with the "holiness" movement thru the years. We get people prayed thru, baptized, and the first thing we do is give them the "standards" speech so they can sing on the platform.

In my experience, in many churches, the matters of the heart are often skimmed over, because our intent is to get people to "look right" so they can sing in the choir.

Inward holiness manifests itself on the outside, as Jesus said, but outward standard do not automatically guarantee inward holiness, nor can outward standards protect inward holiness.

Very well said! It is truth if I have ever heard truth.

Question here, and I'm sure many will cry foul, or at least claim incompatibility.

But, let's say a young man gets his first automobile. Is it more important to teach him how to change the oil, change the air filter, tune the engine up and put gas in the car regularly, or is it more important to teach him how to wash and wax the car?

I think the sentance in your post that I highlighted pretty much says it all. When someone equates old time Pentecostal dress code for "holiness" and "worshipping God", I really don't think there is enough common ground to discuss much.

Why in heavens name does a woman with uncut long hair, no makeup, dress below her knees, etc look like she is worshipping God any more than a woman with cut hair, makeup, and pants on? The answer is that they don't anywhere except in your mind.

:thumbsup Amen CC1!

Not to add another thing into the mix but it seems to be more important whether the manufacturer had 3 CEO's or just one. :) But I think yours is an excellent analogy without me screwing it all up.

Actually, it's a pretty good analogy.
To make it fit even better, it would say "Assume there is a club for men (and women) where by joining they are given a new "old" car. This could even be a typical college shop class. Would the FIRST thing involved in restoring it be a new wash and wax? Or would you gut the interior and remove the engine?"

And afterwards, like you already mentioned, would it be more important to do the things you said.

THEN watch the endless debates about how often it needs to be washed and waxed and what soap and wax brand is appropriate and what COLOR the exterior needs to be painted...... :)

Hey Now!!!! :donuts

The first thing is that the women would be told, "There is no mention of a female performing any of this maintenance in the manual, therefore they are not allowed to do it." :D

A lot has been addressed about this in general. I guess the comment about "being charismatic" caught my attention more so.
That is so paradigm. So if you don't adhere to the standards you are referring to you are "charismatic"? I have to tell you how out of touch that is in the real world. It almost makes me think, this is an individual who has very limited communication outside pentecostal circles.

Get used to it. Once you let go of standards around here you are instantly labeled charismatic.

Women should be warned that their washing and waxing would have a lot more steps to go thru than the men.

I feel sorry for some of you folks.. you must have had preachers in your past who hammered on outward dress everytime they got into the pulpit... you seem to hate it so much.

My pastor spends about 1% of his sermon time on outward dress... (or on oil changes etc as you put it)

Yeah! I'm labeled charismatic and I don't wave banners, sing Jewish songs, or watch TBN!!!!! Go figure! :D

Actually, the outward dress would be the washing and waxing... :)

At least 12 or 13 more..... Books would be written. Sermons preached! Endless radio debates and web sites devoted to "Contending" for the old paths where women were only allowed to wax the SIDES of the car lest they be seen 'bending over' the hood from behind.

Meanwhile.... someone on the other side of the street is busy tuning up his engine and flushing his coolant in preparation for Winter.

Emphasis is not always verbal. It matters more how it is addressed, not how often. I have seen it done in anger while pointing at a teen that had....frizzy hair. You could hear a pin drop aftwards. See, that was over 10 years ago and I haven't forgot it. Later, there were people that backslid so far in that congregation that make that look pretty petty.

Holy is a 4 letter word but it must cover every area of our life...