a honest question
 

i just got through looking at the larry booker thread and reading a little in it

we all know that no matter what the vote was in tampa this last year in the upc the organization was going to lose good men

with the vote being as it was the more conserative side was the one which has men leave

some of them have been accused of dividing the organization and so forth and such

you have been reading it so no need for me to go over it all again

but my question is what if the vote had been different and men from the more liberal side were choosing to leave would those men also be dividing the organization or would they be men of vision and desire to move the upc down the road

as i see it we cannot have it both ways

In a vaccume, your question is a good one.

however, in context, the question isnt so simple. The fact is, in 1992, a large number of those "liberal" pastors did leave. many of the ones leaving now, were happy to see them go.

LY was judged pretty harshly for a sermon he preached on the subject just before he left.

That's what I was thinking.

I don't believe at that time, the ones that left were saying that UPC would self-destruct either.

Of course, the issue is the more conservative are so passionate about their convictions and beliefs that they can only see things through their eyes and no one can fault them for that. However, I think sometimes they paint themselves into a corner.

I also believe this idea of the Cons being devisive stems from 1992. Many in the organization blame the Cons for that exodus and believe the Cons have been devisive since then.

Well, with this attitude - it's no wonder.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=146

Very sad the posted you mentioned...very sad indeed.

is this the words of just a few or many

from what i have been able to gather it is not the words of the many but a few that may even wish that would happen which if that is the case i think it is sad

some would say i am a liberal others would say i am a con but i can say that i wish no destruction for those who leave on either side of the issue

i do not believe however that God would bless anyone who strays from the doctrines taught in the Word of God such as repentance, baptism in Jesus Name or the Holy Ghost

personally i do not believe that this kind of attitude shown in the linked post above pleases God

not at all

I would think it's a few, but to keep hearing over and over that it's not out there is just wrong. It's out there - can't deny that some and I say again some feel this way.

Yes, Cara it is just wrong and cannot please God.

I must speak for I cannot be silent. Well, I could of course but feel so strongly about this whole thing that I won't. So there. :) I just feel once again to express how strongly I feel about this whole "division" thing and how egregious and injurious it will be to the Oneness Apostolic movement overall.

I wish people could look past their noses long enough and the current "issue" and policitical maneuvering going on - because no doubt there's some of that in the mix too - to see how this is going to affect the "ONENESS" ('scuse the pun but well .... so much for that as far as unity and togetherness goes) apostolic movement overall.

I've heard some state that there will still be fellowship between the UPCI and whatever the name of the new division takes place will be called and there may be on the part of some individuals. But there is NO doubt whatsoever that a split away from UPC will result in bad feelings, distance, and a break in fellowship. No doubt about it because strong feelings are already developing and will continue to develop as this thing hastens to its climax.

What a shame in my opinion!

Take a look at the bigger picture and see where things are and how they will be decades down the road should the Lord tarry.

Think about how families, churches, districts, missionaries and the greatest organization going as far as the OP movement goes will be affected.

Young men who have had mentors, shepherds, leaders, teachers and those who they've respected so highly over the years are hearing all this negative "Tulsa split" talk and they are going to be affected as well. They have a heritage and history that's going to be wrenched and torpedoed as a result of what is being planned in regarding to a 'new' group forming.

Think about the division that will take place in families, churches, etc. and how that's going to affect things overall.

I'm just writing quickly here and probably not doing justice to any kind of plea or argument I could make for people to please make sure that they aren't just caught up in a carnal "issue" thing that's not going to matter a hill of beans a few years down the road.

I just feel so :( about all of this.

I know that God is in control and that His will, purpose or plan will not be thwarted as a result of men deciding to walk a different and separate road apart from those who they've fellowshipped with and worked shoulder to shoulder with, who have prayed together, planned together and seen great things accomplished for the kingdom as a result of combined unified effort.

I know this. Anything yet that has split away from a movement that I believe was definitely put together by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost has not prospered or become anything that I personally would want to be part of.

One way we know that the UPCI was definitely started as a result of right spirit, motive and design is the way God blessed for several decades. The growth and the success speaks for itself. That started to change a couple decades or so ago and imo again ....... because of carnal reasoning and motive.

Not that everyone who walks away and decided to go a different way is carnal or has wrong or unholy motive, but certainly that has been a part of some of the unrest and unhappiness that has developed over the past 20 years or so.

I would to God this division wouldn't take place.

"Not my will but Thine be done" is the way we ought to pray of course, but I just wish and pray that MY will WOULD be done. :)

Great thoughts...and I bet you could outpost the majority of the board even if you are writing quickly...

I agree, the proverbial cutting off the nose to spite the face...

Sad? Yes, but how many times are saints counseled to leave in peace (as they should) to another church if they cannot abide in the current church in unity?

Leaving in peace is one thing. What is happening presently goes a bit beyond that.

Most people including pastors are followers. Pastors are leaders, yes, most of them anyhow. But there are men among the UPCI membership who are leaders among leaders who are leading/driving this whole thing and what they're hoping develops goes beyond simply "leaving in peace" because they can't go along with a change that has taken place.

Gotta go eat my sandwich. :)

Great posts here, girl...experience speaks.

The word that comes to my mind when reading lately is timing...my former pastor and others have been talking about leaving forever.

Some have been disgruntled with 'things' for years...

Why now?!

As a wise friend keeps telling me, "The issue is not always the issue!!" :bubble

I think the answer to your question will be in how they handle it. If they have class and are gentlemen then I think everything will be fine.

If they rant and rave and trash the UPC then they are dead wrong.

You raise some interesting questions, Sis.

What? There was a question? LOL. :)

• Depends on how you look at if of course as to how you answer the question, but you can't effectively affect or move anything if you're not in it.
  
  
• To me men of vision and desire to move the UPC down the road will stay in it and see that as it moves that important things stay front and center.
  
  
• Just leaving a group doesn't mean you're dividing it. You can create division by remaining in an organization if you're bucking leadership and the status quo with a bad attitude.
  
  
• I understand that people have to act on the courage of their conviction and according to their conscience, and there are times when there has to be a parting of ways.
  
  
• I guess I'm just in part asking people to consider the long term affect of the decision they make and to understand that the grass won't be greener on the other side.

Just a few thots.......