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Emma Bontrager 11-26-2007 10:47 AM

The Plain Coat
 
For all you men who think you are separated from the world but dress just like them.

Quote:

The Plain Coat in Our Brotherhood

The separation the believer experiences in his appearance is rooted in the separation he has experienced in his nature, in his whole life, in his coming under the lordship of Jesus Christ. Our Holy God, in other words, has transformed us into His holy people and has called us to a holy way of life, which means, in effect, that He has called us to forsake our former slavery to Satan, sin, and the world. This sanctification---this setting apart unto God---is what underlies the differences in the appearance of believers and the appearance of unbelievers.

Satan has specific intentions in the clothing and unclothing of his people. He seeks to corrupt, to tempt, to draw away from God, to confuse the sexes, to demoralize, and to display the pride of man---all through the appearance of unbelievers.

God, too, has clear intentions for the way His people appear. But His intentions are as different from Satan’s as light is from darkness. In both Testaments God has made His intentions clear that man’s clothing cover nakedness, maintain clear sex distinction, and avoid worldly fashion and vain display.

Appearance and fashion have always been very important to man as an expression of himself and what others think of him. Those who control the fashion world are largely ones who do not follow Christ but seek to tantalize and glorify man via clothes. Ultimately, fashion is directed by the prince of this world. We, as those who have been translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son, have no desire to accommodate ourselves to the unwholesome fruits of darkness

One of the weaknesses in our arguments for the plain coat is that we wear it so seldom. Could we agree that we feel it should be worn when one would ordinarily dress in more formal attire, and also helpful to us as an alternate to just casual attire?

To what extent should our standards for dressing up be governed by society’s standards? We feel we owe some consideration and respect for what is considered acceptable and respectful in our society. Sometimes we dress up because society considers it a dress up occasion even if we would rather just wear “common” clothes. We feel it is appropriate to have “formal” attire for those occasions.

I. Why wear the plain coat?

A. We believe it is an appropriate expression of nonconformity in formal wear.

B. It can help avoid changeable suits of apparel.

C. It is an alternate to wearing the tie, which can be considered putting on of apparel – that is, unnecessary.

D. It can serve as a leveling influence in the brotherhood. A common pattern of clothing can help to avoid competition and distinction based on wealth, position, etc.

E. It serves as an identifying mark, associated by most people as having something to do with religion, and has often opened the door for speaking about spiritual things.

F. Many different kinds of groups are identified by their pattern of dress (nurses, policemen, branches of the military, boy scouts, etc., etc.). It would seem in order for the believers in a free society to also be thus identified. Furthermore, since the church is a brotherhood, a kingdom of priests, it is best if there is no distinction between ordained and unordained, so all wear a distinctive garb, not just the “clergy.”

G. It encourages the wearer to live in harmony with his “clothing profession,” of standing apart from the world. It may encourage him in wholesome speech as well as the places he may or may not go.


We feel that most of these reasons are not compelling reasons. They are simply reasonable reasons. These reasons are not necessarily in order of importance.



II. Principles To Consider In The Application of The Plain Suit

In the Old Testament God called His people to wear a distinctive fringe with a ribbon of blue on the edge of their garments (Numbers 15:37-41). This was not for the ungodly, but was to remind the Israelites who they were and how obliged (and privileged) they were to obey the commandments of God.

In the New Testament, we have no prescribed patterns of dress for the church. The church is scattered over the whole earth in a variety of cultures. But in every culture, every climate, and every age, God’s people are called to faithfully and practically apply His clear directives: 1) avoid fashion, 2) avoid ornamentation, and 3) maintain sex distinction.

a. Ro 12:1-2 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

b. 1Ti 2:8-10 8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 9 ¶ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

c. 1 Pet. 3:1-4; 1 ¶ Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

d. 1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [Note that effeminate has specific clothing connotations].

e. 1John 2:15-17 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Conclusion:

The plain suit for brethren has served many conservative Mennonites and Brethren since around the close of the nineteenth century. As formal wear, it has a simple dignity, and it eliminates the wearing of the necktie. Having been in use for a century, it has the blessing of wide acceptance and thus the power of a corporate application, though it is by no means the only application of separation and simplicity in men’s appearance.

The plain suit has no righteousness in itself. And yet the principles from which it was born cry out against being worn by the proud, the covetous, and the immoral. To be consistent with itself, the plain suit should remain both plan and serviceable, not striking in color, style, or additions, not giving the appearance of finery.

From Our Statement of Faith, Pages 34&35

“Brethren shall avoid styles of clothing that display pride and sensuality. For brethren we recommend the plain coat be worn when formal attire is appropriate as an expression of nonconformity to the world. Neckties shall not be worn. No Christian should appear in public immodestly dressed. He will be consistent with the principles of discipleship in all matters pertaining to his appearance; he will shun the novel fads and fashions in the styling of the hair and/or the beard. While we recognize the prerogative of other conservative groups to permit the wearing of the full beard, we ask our members not to wear the mustache.”

ILG 11-26-2007 11:13 AM

Well, Emma, see, the men can dress like the world, but the women can't. Everybody knows that. ;)

DividedThigh 11-26-2007 11:16 AM

ilg you and emma are both silly, and funny and right sometimes, lol,dt:yourock

Emma Bontrager 11-26-2007 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DividedThigh (Post 311204)
ilg you and emma are both silly, and funny and right sometimes, lol,dt:yourock

Right sometimes? Hmm. I thought I was right ALL the time!:noidea All I do is repeat what the anointed of God tell me.

Hoovie 11-26-2007 06:51 PM

Most of the men in my family do wear the "Plain" suit coat.

Scott Hutchinson 11-26-2007 08:12 PM

Ok so I'm worldly I like neckties.
Do any of the plain suit wearers have the baptism of the Holy Ghost ?

Hoovie 11-26-2007 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 311708)
Ok so I'm worldly I like neckties.
Do any of the plain suit wearers have the baptism of the Holy Ghost ?

They would say yes... but if asked do they speak in tongues, most of them do not.

Scott Hutchinson 11-26-2007 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 311714)
They would say yes... but if asked do they speak in tongues, most of them do not.

Are these people ceasessionists ? In other words,they don't believe healings and miracles and such are for today.

Hoovie 11-26-2007 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 311717)
Are these people ceasessionists ? In other words,they don't believe healings and miracles and such are for today.

For the most part they are cessationist.

Scott Hutchinson 11-26-2007 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 311723)
For the most part they are cessationist.

Thanks that's what I thought.

Emma Bontrager 11-27-2007 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 311660)
Most of the men in my family do wear the "Plain" suit coat.

And you left a church that believes in separation from the world for both men AND women and joined one that believes in separation for women only. Sad, my English friend. :tissue Repentance still works. ;)

Neck 11-27-2007 12:17 PM

To quote RKentsmith

"The UPC needs a healer"

Still can't figure out what that means!




:noidea

Emma Bontrager 11-28-2007 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neckstadt (Post 312247)
To quote RKentsmith

"The UPC needs a healer"

Still can't figure out what that means!




:noidea

It means the UPC is messed up. They either need to go conservative or quit pretending!! :grampa

Sept5SavedTeen 11-28-2007 04:44 PM

Is dressing in plain clothing apostolic? Would the apostles want us to make a spectacle of ourselves (not to say of course that some Pentecostals don't make a spectacle, but work with me here)? Did the apostles dress in this Amish-wear? Is it 1st century Christianity or is it 16th century, Swiss, conservative Anabaptist style? Now there's nothing wrong with a style, but there's no need to dress as the Amish in order to be modest, and it can pose unnecessary stumbling blocks for people on the outside. How much are the Amish doing by way of outreach?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

ILG 11-28-2007 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen (Post 313269)
Is dressing in plain clothing apostolic? Would the apostles want us to make a spectacle of ourselves (not to say of course that some Pentecostals don't make a spectacle, but work with me here)? Did the apostles dress in this Amish-wear? Is it 1st century Christianity or is it 16th century, Swiss, conservative Anabaptist style? Now there's nothing wrong with a style, but there's no need to dress as the Amish in order to be modest, and it can pose unnecessary stumbling blocks for people on the outside. How much are the Amish doing by way of outreach?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I wonder if there's also no need to dress as UPC'ers in order to be modest and if dressing UPC can pose unneccesary stumblingblocks for people on the outside? Well, I take that back, because I know the answer. What do you think?

Also, I wonder how much the UPC does in the way of family life?

Sept5SavedTeen 11-30-2007 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILG (Post 313284)
I wonder if there's also no need to dress as UPC'ers in order to be modest and if dressing UPC can pose unneccesary stumblingblocks for people on the outside? Well, I take that back, because I know the answer. What do you think?

Also, I wonder how much the UPC does in the way of family life?


As for the UPC, I'm not UPC, although the last church I attended was UPC, the standards are being kept half-way, so it's difficult to tell what stumblingblock is being posed for the outsider. The greatest stumblingblock probably comes to those on inside the church by way of hypocracy. Also, the concepts of modesty teach us a few things. I do believe a woman should not expose the shape of her thighs, therefore, pants are probably not proper apparel for women. If a woman is going to wear a skirt, in order to be modest, should we wear it at the knee? No, that defeats the purpose, it should be at the ankles, if they're really wanting to do things correctly. As for other Apostolic standards of modesty, are long-sleeves a wise decision? For some, perhaps, they are. I personally don't see a problem with short-sleeves as long as they don't expose the underarm, but I have no Bible for that, so I only say it by permission and to have a standard in my personal life of modesty. Other UPC/Apostolic standards of modesty, like no mixed bathing and no jewlery are great and should be upheld (and jewlery DOES mean wedding rings).

Lastly, as for family life, the UPC is probably not doing enough. And it probably stems from the pastors not having good family lives due to their constant busyness and committments, which is why I believe a church should be run by elders and deacons, so that the load can be evened out, so the men who work in GOD's church can be good examples, and so this can trickle down to the saint's family lives. Also, although church work/services are good, and we should not forsake church work, I have seen some Apostolic churches that have been so demanding and draining on some people that it hurts the family quite a bit.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

RD Cox 11-30-2007 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson (Post 311708)
Ok so I'm worldly I like neckties.
Do any of the plain suit wearers have the baptism of the Holy Ghost ?


Did the Holy Ghost lead you into wearing french nooses?

Actually some do and the number is growing. One of the things the apostolic anabaptists can't figure out is why those that claim to have the real Holy Ghost would tie such a dangerous knot around their neck. The witness isn't one of great imparted wisdom. And that is apart from the colorful decor, a knot is a knot is a knot.

RD Cox 11-30-2007 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILG (Post 313284)
I wonder if there's also no need to dress as UPC'ers in order to be modest and if dressing UPC can pose unneccesary stumblingblocks for people on the outside? Well, I take that back, because I know the answer. What do you think?

Also, I wonder how much the UPC does in the way of family life?

The Anabaptists have the Apostolics beat in many areas. It's some of the surviving carry over attributes that illustrate what was, and is done correctly. However they have lost somethings along the way.

Does the Bible teach us to become and dress like the world to reach the world?

Or does proper separation help to distinguish, protect, and empower us to go in and reach the world?

Is there a way that we can both separate from the world, on the inside and out, without offense to God or man?

Righteousness doesn't appeal to everyone, and we must be very careful, and quite frankly, led of the Holy Ghost and not knee-jerk pretenses in these areas.

Many have gone too far in their endeavors to "reach the world," or is it sometimes nothing more than a cloaked, hip pocket excuse of convenience to live after their own ways and have more fellowship with the world than with God?

The plain dress sometimes fulfills proper function with respect to modesty, but often fails to make a righteous, or intended, impression on the English.

Emma Bontrager 12-02-2007 01:16 PM

[QUOTE=RD Cox;315035]The Anabaptists have the Apostolics beat in many areas. It's some of the surviving carry over attributes that illustrate what was, and is done correctly. However they have lost somethings along the way.

Does the Bible teach us to become and dress like the world to reach the world?

NO!

Or does proper separation help to distinguish, protect, and empower us to go in and reach the world?

YES! Look at how people seek us out!! And it's not just the women who are asked if they are Amish!! You "Apostolic men" want to look like the world and make the women responsible to carry the burden of reaching the lost!!

Is there a way that we can both separate from the world, on the inside and out, without offense to God or man?

YES!!

Many have gone too far in their endeavors to "reach the world," or is it sometimes nothing more than a cloaked, hip pocket excuse of convenience to live after their own ways and have more fellowship with the world than with God?

You're preaching to the choir!! (That is merely a figrue of speech. We do not HAVE a choir!!)

The plain dress sometimes fulfills proper function with respect to modesty, but often fails to make a righteous, or intended, impression on the English.

Says who? The English downright seek us out, travel to our parts of the world, come to buy our goods and why? Because they are tired of their own lifestyle and want something different! You are so close to what they are that they never seek you out like they do us. Plain and simple.

staysharp 12-02-2007 01:41 PM

I only have one comment for this thread:

If your clothes could save you, you wouldn't need the cross.

Sept5SavedTeen 12-02-2007 08:37 PM

But Amish clothing standards aren't biblical! I mean, if you like them, fine, but they're not what reaches people and win the lost, in fact they can act as a stumblingblock. Should a woman wrap a garment around her as to not expose her thighs and be modest? Yes, she should not be in pants, fair enough. Should a man dress modestly, yes? But what's the point of dressing like 1500's Swiss Anabaptists? The Apostles weren't 1500's, Swiss Anabaptists. The Apostles dressed like the people of their day, but if there was any immodesty in the styles of their day, they taught against it (ie. Peter and Paul speaking against women wearing jewlery and costly array as in IPeter 3 and in ITimothy 2, ect...). There's just no reason to dress in Amish clothing, it's in fact the oppossite of modest, in that it ATTRACTS attention.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

ILG 12-02-2007 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen (Post 316850)
But Amish clothing standards aren't biblical! I mean, if you like them, fine, but they're not what reaches people and win the lost, in fact they can act as a stumblingblock. Should a woman wrap a garment around her as to not expose her thighs and be modest? Yes, she should not be in pants, fair enough. Should a man dress modestly, yes? But what's the point of dressing like 1500's Swiss Anabaptists? The Apostles weren't 1500's, Swiss Anabaptists. The Apostles dressed like the people of their day, but if there was any immodesty in the styles of their day, they taught against it (ie. Peter and Paul speaking against women wearing jewlery and costly array as in IPeter 3 and in ITimothy 2, ect...). There's just no reason to dress in Amish clothing, it's in fact the oppossite of modest, in that it ATTRACTS attention.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

I'm not sure if you realize that Emma is a spoof. But please, use your own logic on UPC standards in the same way you talk about Amish standards. The Apostles weren't 1940's America either like the women's UPC dress code. Think about it! And Peter and Paul were speaking of overdressing as a principle best as I can tell or jewelry would not be praised in the Old Testament!

Sept5SavedTeen 12-02-2007 10:02 PM

Well obviously Emma isn't Amish, she's on the internet. As for "spoof" I don't know what that means. She entitled to her opinion, and if she likes Amish clothing, by all means, dress in it, but to ask why more Apostolic men don't wear the "plain coat", well the answer is that the Bible doesn't command it, and there is no need to put upon people more than what is written. As for UPC dress being 1940's, I don't really see that... I mean, the women wear long skirts, modest tops, ect... How is a long jean skirt and a turtleneck on a woman 1940s? How is a khaki skirt with a button up shirt on a woman 1940's? My sister wears these things, she doesn't dress like the 1940s. What is typical modest clothing is so counter-cultural today that it becomes noticed, but it of itself should not attract attention.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

ILG 12-03-2007 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen (Post 316993)
Well obviously Emma isn't Amish, she's on the internet. As for "spoof" I don't know what that means. She entitled to her opinion, and if she likes Amish clothing, by all means, dress in it, but to ask why more Apostolic men don't wear the "plain coat", well the answer is that the Bible doesn't command it, and there is no need to put upon people more than what is written. As for UPC dress being 1940's, I don't really see that... I mean, the women wear long skirts, modest tops, ect... How is a long jean skirt and a turtleneck on a woman 1940s? How is a khaki skirt with a button up shirt on a woman 1940's? My sister wears these things, she doesn't dress like the 1940s. What is typical modest clothing is so counter-cultural today that it becomes noticed, but it of itself should not attract attention.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

That's the point, it's counter cultural. The Bible does not anywhere command women to wear skirts, it simply says that men and women should not wear the apparel of the other. The Bible does not anywhere say that women cannot trim or cut their hair, it simply says that long hair is a glory to a woman. If people are not supposed to wear jewelry, then the Bible contradicts itself, praising jewelry in the Old Testament and condemning it in the New. And UPC'ers often wear rings and tie tacks and cuff links and expensive watches and hair thingys and then frown on someone wearing a simple necklace.

I agree that people should dress modestly, but long hair and a skirt, as you said, is counter cultural and draws attention which is the opposite of modesty. I am not saying it is WRONG for a woman to wear long hair and a skirt if that is her conviction, but it is wrong to make it a mandate for all women or call them rebellious and backslid or going to hell.


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