Apostolic Friends Forum

Apostolic Friends Forum (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)
-   Fellowship Hall (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charismatics (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=54363)

TGBTG 01-22-2021 09:18 PM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1600583)
Here's one:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...5&postcount=55


1. The error of Hymenaeus, and the error among the Thessalonians, and one of the errors addressed in Hebrews ch 6, is due to the event described in Matthew 27:51-53
2. John 3:13 was written to combat those same errors
3. Matt 27:51-53 itself was written to combat the Hymenaean and Thessalonian error
4. The errors mentioned in 1 are that the resurrection had either already happened, or had already commenced.
5. The errors mentioned in 1 were due to reports circulating among certain Jews concerning the event described in Matt 27:51-53
6. Matt wrote a description of the event using particular language in order to both address the error that had developed as well as to CORRECT the error that had developed
7. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the textual integrity of Matthew, the New Testament, the Old Testament, and thus the entire Bible.
8. If Matt 27:51-53 describes people resurrecting as immortal and glorified, then there is a series of major issues that develop regarding the idea of apostolic unity, as it would then become apparent that Pauline Christianity (and likely Johannine Christianity) and Matthean Christianity were at odds concerning a major doctrine about resurrection.

Can you expand on this or a link to something you already wrote? I donít see how the account in Matthew is CORRECTING an error as supposed to reporting that a resurrection happened.

Esaias 01-22-2021 10:14 PM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1600586)
Can you expand on this or a link to something you already wrote? I donít see how the account in Matthew is CORRECTING an error as supposed to reporting that a resurrection happened.

Matthew 27:50-54 KJV
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. [51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. [54] Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
He states "many bodies of the saints arose and came out of the graves and went into the city and appeared unto many." His language is interesting.

1. He asserts they went into the city, not into heaven, Paradise, the Presence of God, the Third Heaven, etc, or any other term recognizable to a first century Judean as indicating THE Resurrection into "The World To Come".

2. He asserts the BODIES arose, went, appeared, etc. Thus he describes in definite terms a physical bodily resurrection of (formerly dead) bodies coming out of tombs, etc. Thus his language counters gnostic and Greek religious concepts of "life after death" and leaving the physical body behind to travel in a non material disembodied spirit-form to Elysian Fields, heaven, etc.

In other words, his terminology rules out the two possibilities that this event was either a resurrection into immortality according to the Judean conceptualization, or a "raising" into immortality according to the Greek conceptualisation. Or in other words, he is asserting this was NOT the resurrection into immortality that anybody might be looking forward to.

Hymenaeus and others had been claiming the resurrection had taken place already. Matthew's account is the ONLY place that speaks of any event that could be mistaken or pointed to as evidence of a past resurrection into immortality. In other words, after Christ's resurrection, either some dead people DID come back to life, or at least it appeared that way to many witnesses, and this event became the basis of a belief that "the resurrection has already occurred". So, to COUNTER that error, Matthew described what happened using terms that rule out this event from being the resurrection to immortality.

1 God 01-22-2021 10:56 PM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1600581)
Cool story, bro.

Which is correct?...

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Or this?...

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee through the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Esaias 01-22-2021 11:02 PM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1600590)
Which is correct?...

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Or this?...

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee through the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

John 17:14-15 KJV
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jesus prayed that His disciples would be kept from the evil by a means OTHER THAN being taken out of the world. Like in a rapture.

Which means a secret pretrib rapture is not in the cards.

1 God 01-22-2021 11:09 PM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1600591)
John 17:14-15 KJV
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jesus prayed that His disciples would be kept from the evil by a means OTHER THAN being taken out of the world. Like in a rapture.

Which means a secret pretrib rapture is not in the cards.

We are living in the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try them that dwell on the earth for the last 2000 years?

Esaias 01-22-2021 11:12 PM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1600593)
We are living in the hour of temptation that will come upon all the world to try them that dwell on the earth for the last 2000 years?

No, the price of tea in Hong Kong has been steady for 2 months. Q predicted this.

Amanah 01-23-2021 02:38 AM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1600591)
John 17:14-15 KJV
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jesus prayed that His disciples would be kept from the evil by a means OTHER THAN being taken out of the world. Like in a rapture.

Which means a secret pretrib rapture is not in the cards.

Attested to by the last trumpet in the book of Revelation

Also attested to by the late season of the Feast of trumpets.

1 God 01-23-2021 08:50 AM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Odd. Most Christians believed in the rapture until about 15 years ago. A new doctrine has emerged in Christendom, dominating the land. It says that Jesus will guide us through the near extinction of the earth in 7 years, instead of keeping us from it. I try to comprehend my unsaved neighbors hideously dying before my eyes as I am untouched. Will I rejoice for 7 years as all food and water etc is taken and my house is demolished along with the rest of my town, and I am a vagabond in the ruins of my city? Either these anti-rapture folks have no foresight or they unwittingly love an anguish inflicting God.

Michael The Disciple 01-23-2021 10:26 AM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Odd. Most Christians believed in the rapture until about 15 years ago. A new doctrine has emerged in Christendom, dominating the land.
They by far still believe in a PRE TRIB rapture. If you are saying the post trib is dominating the land I ask what land you live in? As one who makes mental notes of this I would say there are at least 20 pre trib Churches to one post trib.

Quote:

It says that Jesus will guide us through the near extinction of the earth in 7 years, instead of keeping us from it.
Well that will be for his glory.

Quote:

I try to comprehend my unsaved neighbors hideously dying before my eyes as I am untouched. Will I rejoice for 7 years as all food and water etc is taken and my house is demolished along with the rest of my town, and I am a vagabond in the ruins of my city? Either these anti-rapture folks have no foresight or they unwittingly love an anguish inflicting God.
Your unsaved neighbors if they are alive will be turning you over to the system if indeed they are not taken out by one of Gods plagues against them.

I wonder if the suffering Christians in China see God as an "anguish inflicting" God? Why hasnt he raptured THEM to Heaven? Many of them are in prison camps as we speak. Many of them or their loved ones have been executed and their organs cut out and shipped to America for use.

Or how about believers in the middle east? Many are having their heads cut off. Their wives and children sold as slaves.

And yet somehow we think God owes it to the American Christian to take him to Heaven so he wont have to suffer for Jesus Christ!

Jesus said we would be hated of all nations.

The "new doctrine" that has taken over is the conservative doctrine of "American Exceptionalism".

Americans are essentially better people than other nations. Therefore they should not have to suffer.

I am not "anti rapture". I am anti "pre trib" rapture.

Ronnie G 01-23-2021 11:35 AM

Re: False Prophecies Everywhere, not just Charisma
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1600610)
Your unsaved neighbors if they are alive will be turning you over to the system if indeed they are not taken out by one of Gods plagues against them.

I imagine this scenario will be largely true. The problem I have at this point is, itís not happening now, and for me to engage in the imagery of specific neighbors doing such prejudices them against me witnessing to them. Itís a really easy trap to fall into.

I actually think there will be people with no relationship to God that stand down and resist the mark as wellójust my theory, but oh well.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:40 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.