Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

In the Old Covenant it's says I sought for a man to stand in the hedge and make up the gap. The mediator that brought us to God is the MAN Christ Jesus. The humanity, son, and or sacrifice brought us to God. Without the blood of Jesus being spotless, perfect there was no mediator.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

When the Humanity was no longer needed.

Why wasn't the body of Jesus needed in the old covenant?

Why is the body of Christ needed today, on wait it is, it's called the church.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Absolutely.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

As you say, Jesus, and as I have pointed out, the apostles believed that Jesus is the Son of God. Not was . . .

Is the Son of God. Present tense.

2Cor.1

[19] For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

They preached that Jesus was the Son of God long after the crucifixion. So, as another brother asked: When did Jesus quit being the Son of God?

It seems that either He still is, or he ceased being so after the New Testament as written. Which is it?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

1 Thess 1:10

Who are we WAITING FOR?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Then what is Jesus the son of God in the spiritual realm?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

You mean who were they waiting for.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Isaiah 9

[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Again, when did this happen? I have given you my answer to your question about who died on the cross, is Jesus still the son of God today.
So can you say when the humanity (to use your words) stopped being the son of God?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Going by this response, are you saying Jesus stopped being the son of God at 70AD ?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

No, we cannot, if you are referring to me, since and because I am not a Trinitarian.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

When I say Oneness forefathers, I am referring to people like G. T. Haywood, Frank Ewart, Andrew Urshan, Frank Bartleman, Howard Goss, and the like.

Yes, the church has always existed since Pentecost.

And every Trinitarian believes Jesus Christ is God. Find me one who didn't in the past, or currently doesn't. It is sine qua non. One of the defining cornerstones of Trinitarian theology is that Jesus is God. You can't be a Trinitarian in any regular, traditional sense and not believe He is God at the same time.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Again, name a Trinitarian that doesn't believe Jesus is God.

That is good, because the litmus test of salvation is obedience to the Gospel, not a degree in theology proper.

Even though Trinitarians believe Jesus is God??? See above.

That IS NOT what the trinity is, and NO TRINITARIAN BELIEVES in three individual gods in one body.

When is this bearing of false witness going to end? Many Oneness people routinely caricaturize and misrepresent Trinitarian views on the Godhead and then proceed to critique and judge and condemn Trinitarians based off of those very caricatures and misrepresentations. It is a shame and not worthy of Christ.

Do unto others that which you would have others do unto you. If you don't want people caricaturizing and misrepresenting what you believe, how about not doing so to others, just so you can have your strawman and beat it, too.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

John 8:35,

How long does the Son abide?

Ever: from the Greek word aion, meaning "an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity", the Greek (LXX) equivalent to the Hebrew word olam, meaning "an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity"

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm

Compare to John 6:51 and John 6:58, which uses the same Greek word for "for ever" as in:

"...he shall live for ever..." and "...shall live for ever..." respectively.

See:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/6-51.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/6-58.htm

So, if anyone wants to argue aion should only mean "age" in John 8:35, then please convince us that aion doesn't mean "age" in John 6:51 and 58.

Same with Matthew 6:13, that the kingdom, power, and glory of God the Father only endures for an "age".

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

To the Son, he saith, Thy throne, O God is for ever and ever... (Hebrews 1:8).

Note, too, Isaiah 9:6-7.

A son is given...and the son's kingdom shall have no end. It shall be established forever (in Hebrew olam, or in the LXX, aion referenced in post #94 above).

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/9-7.htm and https://biblehub.com/sepd/isaiah/9.htm noting αἰῶνα in verse 7.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Colossian 2:9,

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Dwelleth: κατοικεῖ (katoikei), meaning to settle down into, or permanently reside.

Note, κατοικεῖ (katoikei) is conjugated as present indicative active, meaning, constant, continuous or uninterrupted activity.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-9.htm and https://biblehub.com/greek/2730.htm

This means that the Godhead not only dwelt in Christ Jesus bodily, it currently still does as a constant, continuous or uninterrupted reality.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Hebrews 9:15,

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant...

He is: from Greek ἐστίν (estin), meaning to be, also conjugated as present indicative active, meaning constant, continuous, or uninterrupted activity.

Jesus was and still is, and always will be, the mediator of the New Covenant.

Now, a mediator is not a mediator of one, but rather, of two (Galatians 3:20), which is to say, in this case, God, and man (1 Timothy 2:5).

Jesus the same yesterday, today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8, Greek for "for ever" is aion already referenced in post #94).

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-15.htm and https://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm and https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/13-8.htm

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

What was the purpose of God manifesting in the flesh? To fulfill the plan he had from the foundation of the world. To provide a perfect sacrifice to cover all our sins with the atoning blood. Paul said it better, his sacrifice did what the blood of bulls and goats could not do.

I believe after his ascention the humanity was no longer needed.
He rose that body from the grave, appeared to his disciples and others to prove his power of death, hell, and the grave.

God is a Spirit, the son of God (humanity) was not God. The spirit inside Humanity was God, not the flesh. The flesh or the humanity was just a vessel to be the sacrifice. I don't believe in divine flesh, I don't believe Jesus is a physical, natural Jew up in heaven somewhere.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Allow me to plainly ask, in heaven right now what is God in the form of and what is Jesus in the form of?

Is there humanity in the spiritual dimension of Heaven?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

The very essence of the trinitarian belief is that there is God the father, Jesus the son, and Holy Spirit. Three separate co- equal, co- eternal, co- existing Gods. They may claim that Jesus is God yet when you believe in three or two then it’s no longer a belief in God.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

I’ll come back to this. I have talked and conversed with trinitarians and Mormons, one believes in three the other believes in two.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

First of, thanks for answering the question.

From your response, you said the son of God is not God. You see the son as just a human body. I think I now understand why you keep saying “the humanity”.
I see the Son of God as God himself in human form not just a body. Here are a few reasons:

Looking at the time when “the humanity” was on earth:
Jn 10
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Notice that on multiple occasions, the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he called himself the Son of God. Notice in John 10:33 the Jews said Jesus should not make himself equal to God since he is just a man. The Jews recognized what Son of God equates to God.

Continuing, per your response, you said the humanity was done with after his ascension. So now, let’s look at the time after “the humanity” was supposedly done with:

1 Jn 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
The apostle John said to be born of God (born again), one must believe that Jesus is (not was) the Son of God. Whoever believes this overcomes the world. The apostle is still referring to Jesus as the Son of God years after his ascension.

1 Thess1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Apostle Paul is telling the Thessalonians to expect the Son back from heaven years after his ascension. This definitely shows (at least to me) that the Son was in heaven during the times of the Thessalonians.

I have shown you that Jesus called himself the Son of God while on earth and that equated to being God.
Now, let’s look at what Jesus called himself years after his ascension while in heaven.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Notice Jesus call himself the Son of God tears after “the humanity” supposedly was done with. There are many other scriptures that show Jesus is CURRENTLY the Son of God, but these should suffice.

On to your question-
You asked “in heaven right now, what is God in the form of and what is Jesus in the form of?”
I believe 1 cor 15 thoroughly answers this question. It’s a long scripture so I’ll just emphasize some verses in there.
1 cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So what form is Jesus in right now? The spiritual (incorruptible) body with which he was raised from the dead. Paul said we too shall have the same body at the resurrection.

Apostle John said the same thing:
1 Jn 1:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We will have the same spiritual body that Jesus has.

What form is God in? Jesus is God (at least to me), so God exists SIMULTANEOUSLY as the incorporeal Spirit he has always been AND as the resurrected Christ.

Your other question- “is there humanity in heaven?”
Like I showed you from 1 cor 15- Jesus has a spiritual body in heaven right now (not our adamic, corrupt flesh). And we too will receive the same spiritual body at the resurrection. So there will be plenty “humanity” in heaven at some point..lol

2 cor 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

As they worship three, they eliminate Jesus form being God. They may say it, (Jesus is God) they can confess it, yet there are two other gods they believe in.


I disagree. Submission is the key to salvation.


If they believed Jesus is God, then they would believe there is only One God and that is the God of the Old and New Covenant and his name is Jesus. Hid from the Old Covenant, revealed by the Angel in the New.

Definition from Encyclopedia of Britannica
Trinity, in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

Under the Godhead they believe in three separate persons. God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Hence why they baptize in the titles father, son, and Holy Spirit.


I gave my opinion to a question concerning the disunity between the two camps of oneness and trinitarian believers. I simply said we do not worship the same God. From there we have had a lively discussion, the fact remains the same, they do not worship the same God I do. Our compassion for humanity can get in the way of truth yet truth it is. I love Trinitarians, my prayer is that there blinded eyes will see the revelation of Jesus Christ. I will help in any way possible with anyone that doesn’t understand or believe in the One True God. Yet, the fact is, I worship One God and His name is Jesus, they worship a triune godhead that is made up of three persons, again, we do not worship the same God. Sorry!

If the trinitarians worship three persons in the godhead, and oneness believers worship one God in the godhead, then do we worship the same God?

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

In Acts 9, the visible "body" of Jesus was a heavenly light brighter than the sun that Paul saw, which blinded him.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

[QUOTE=TGBTG;1602346]First of, thanks for answering the question.

I will come back to this, I have company today, Ill come back to it tonight or in the morning.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Jesus is a Spirit.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Paul spoke in the present tense, "there IS one mediator...the MAN."


His scars will still be visible at his second coming.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

John saw a man with hair, feet, eyes, face, etc.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

My maternal grandmother was born and raised Roman Catholic, which is about as Trinitarian as one can get.

She was strong on:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Ghost

She wanted to hear nothing about Oneness. That's not what she believed, and that is not what the Catholic church teaches. She insisted that she believed in only one God, but she was also quick to inform you that she believed in the Holy Trinity.

All Trinitarians may not be as staunch as some with their beliefs.

But the basic consensus is that Trinitarians believe the Godhead consists of three co-equal and co-eternal persons. In short, there are three separate deities in the Godhead. That is not what the Bible teaches, nor is that what the Apostles taught, and we're told to remain steadfast in their doctrine.

On the other hand, some self-proclaiming Trinitarians are simply so use to hearing Father, Son, and Spirit that they think just the titles means they're Trinitarian. But if you were to discuss the Godhead with these people they would appear to be Oneness. A brother in my church discussed Oneness with his sister, only to find out she was already a mislabeled Oneness believer. Too bad she went back to her Nazarene preacher and let that woman talk her out of Oneness and back into the Trinity.

Those men and women that have been to Trinitarian seminaries are the most dogmatic on the Trinity. They think Oneness is heresy and that we're legalistic modalists.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

An omnipresent spirit body that radiates light.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

John saw a man. But at the same time, Jesus is a quickening spirit.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Regarding the emboldened text above and especially the underlined:

WRONG

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Why do you insist on reaffirming your ignorance?

And what is the qualitative difference between obedience and submission?

Trinitarians do believe there is only one God, Who is the God of the Old and New Covenants, and His name is Jesus.

What planet are you living on?

Do you see what you've done?

This whole thread up until know you have repeatedly misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity as a belief in Three Gods. But now that you've finally made the effort to do a bit of research and share something official, you've changed your language to more accurately reflect the quoted source, to "three separate persons".

This whole time, in your mind, and in this thread, you have been conflating the words Gods and persons. This is an error and if you at all wish to win a Trinitarian to your theological views, you need to correct it.

Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods. You insisting they do doesn't make it so.

You didn't give an opinion, you bore false witness. You repeatedly claimed Trinitarians believe in three Gods. This isn't so. Now, maybe you're merely parroting someone else's claim, and the lie didn't begin with you. But I have corrected your misunderstanding several times now, and you refuse to acknowledge your error. This means you are now intentionally, willfully propagating a misrepresentation and falsehood, which makes you guilty.

Get out of your own presumptions and take some time to carefully read the creeds and confessions of orthodox Trinitarians before you spout off. You are not helping the Oneness movement or the cause of Christ unless and until you do.

This is nothing to do with my compassion for humanity, except perhaps for yours, so that you might repent and get right with the Lord over your refusal to accurately reflect the beliefs of others.

And as far as your love for Trinitarians goes, you might ask yourself how much anyone can say they love someone who they continually misrepresent and caricaturize. How much loved might a Trinitarian feel knowing you are lying about what they believe?

Finally, just the same as Oneness, Trinitarians "worship one God in the godhead".

One wonders why you persist in this show of ignorance. Is it pride? Are you so insecure in your understanding and worship of God, that any challenge to how you do that from another source that understands and worships God differently than you has to be distorted and/or parodied so as to create straw men out of their beliefs?

It is mindboggling and I wish it would stop. For your sake, for their sakes, but most of all, for the sake of the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Does not make Him not human.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

In the Greek of 1 Timothy 2:5, the phrase "there is" is not present, but is supplied. In fact, in the entire verse, there is no verbs at all.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/2-5.htm

Εἷς γὰρ Θεός εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς

heis gar theos eis kai mesites theou kai anthropon christos iesous

Structured grammatically, you have:

Adjective - Conjunction - Noun - Adjective - Conjuction - Noun - Noun - Conjunction - Noun - Noun - Noun

Now, this doesn't automatically mean that the English phrase "there is" is wholly unwarranted, but that is something of a different debate. What we cannot say, however, is that Paul wrote in any tense, present or otherwise, that "there is" anything, because there is no such verbiage represented in the Greek text.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Regarding the emboldened and underlined text above. As I have been attempting to show Nicodemus1968, it is mistaken to say that Trinitarians believe in three deities.

To the Trinitarian, there is but one God, one deity in the Godhead, of which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit co-equally share in and enjoy, which co-equally empowers them and co-equally causes them to be eternal. As such, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each God.

A good place to start looking into the realities of what Trinitarians believe (instead of continuing in this presumptuous charade) is the Quicumque Vult, and then look into the Westminster Confession of Faith.

See below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

http://files1.wts.edu/uploads/pdf/about/WCF_30.pdf

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Bodies by nature are not and cannot be omnipresent. Bodies, as dimensional containers of matter, are definitionally topologically limited to time and space.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

Is she still alive and did she ever come to place to get saved? I would think that would have been more important than getting her to believe in the Oneness doctrine. I was just curious.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

votivesoul,
The Trinity doctrine is complicated to articulate, and hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions out of implications of the premises.

Trinitarians are in practice oneness, or tritheist, depending to who you talk to.

Three persons, three wills, three minds, three powers, and self-existance, but all with the same divine nature, and working in perfect unity. By implication, they basically say that "God" in the NT could refer to one person of the trinity, or to the divine nature as a whole plus the three persons.

Just in my opinion, it is hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 

I very much agree. The reality is that trinitarians generally don’t understand their doctrine any more than oneness apostolics understand theirs. We want to pretend that it’s simple when the very scripture tells us that it is mysterious. And when it’s all said and done it’s easier to criticize another doctrine, in a virtual echo chamber than it is to dig into the scripture and learn the truth.

I know, because I’ve been guilty of it myself.