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loran adkins 03-19-2021 07:53 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1601883)
This is an important concern thatleftcoast1 has brought up. I have noticed that there is a trend whereby other pastors are appointed to the board of a church. Sometimes from several states away. It seems to be designed for increased control by the pulpit faction, while diminishing the influence of the local members.

Or it could just be that there are not enough members in the church to have a board of church members. Which is most likely the case.

Tithesmeister 03-19-2021 08:30 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by loran adkins (Post 1601938)
Or it could just be that there are not enough members in the church to have a board of church members. Which is most likely the case.

No. Thatís not the case. Not even close.

Thatís really pretty ridiculous when you think about it. The board doesnít have to have any certain number of members. If there arenít seven members, have a board with three members. Surely there are three members in a church who can sit on the board.

loran adkins 03-20-2021 07:49 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1601939)
No. Thatís not the case. Not even close.

Thatís really pretty ridiculous when you think about it. The board doesnít have to have any certain number of members. If there arenít seven members, have a board with three members. Surely there are three members in a church who can sit on the board.

Churches that I have been in that did not have a board conducted church business meetings. Either way the church was party to all major decisions, including choosing a new pastor.

Any way I for one cannot see brother Parker installing his son as pastor without church approval.

coksiw 03-20-2021 10:01 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
"This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work." - 1 Timothy 3:1 KJV

1. Want to be a bishop? meet this requirements first, go through this training, etc...
2. Ready? Let's meet with the presbytery for approval.
3. Let's present you to the congregation.
4. Let's assign some tasks to you, so you can demonstrate your service to the congregation for a time.
5. Let's see if there is any serious complain against you from the congregation after that time.
6. No?, OK, join our presbytery of elders of this congregation.

"Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." - 1 Timothy 3:6-7 KJV


Wait... I'm in the wrong model...

JD_1977 03-21-2021 01:33 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1601895)
Certainly, anyone he SUGGESTS should be considered, but there is no inherent "right" in him choosing his successor. After all, HE did not build the church. The MEMBERS built the church and should have the final say. This almost pastor-worship in the Apostolic churches is disgusting. I for one am ECSTATIC to be out from underneath it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1601896)
There is a theory in Apostolic circles that you show your reverence to God by showing reverence to your pastor.
While this is not a bad thing, it has sometimes led to pastor worship.
I am old enough to remember when the prominent UPCI Bible School taught that as a pastor, you should not have the best house/car/clothes in the church.
As it would hinder your ministry.

Concerning the highlighted portions of the two aforementioned posts. I recently heard Bro. Terry Shock teach a lesson about how humanity, with no ill will or bad intention, will often put people in ďthe God zoneĒ through the best of intentions. We honor and support men and ladies who we admire, but sometimes to a very bad degree, to where they are suddenly lifted up (in our eyes) much higher than they should be. There is nothing wrong with honoring your pastor/leadership. I believe that we should give honor where it is due. But I also acknowledge that their are indeed people who have no idea about anything that the scripture teaches and are 100% believing what their pastor says is indeed scriptural. That is, in my opinion, dangerous waters. You risk following a blind man into the ditch if you donít study to show thyself approved. Trust is a wonderful thing...but itís a very dangerous thing when done blindly

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1601909)
Agreed.
I know of many men who I would consider great men of God, who have blinders on when dealing with their own family.
I do wonder, where is Paul or Nathan who will speak the word of the Lord to them?

I could say so much about a circumstance happening at this time with a gentleman that I dearly love...but Iíll simply say that you are dead on with this assessment

Tithesmeister 03-21-2021 08:14 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JD_1977 (Post 1601945)
Concerning the highlighted portions of the two aforementioned posts. I recently heard Bro. Terry Shock teach a lesson about how humanity, with no ill will or bad intention, will often put people in ďthe God zoneĒ through the best of intentions. We honor and support men and ladies who we admire, but sometimes to a very bad degree, to where they are suddenly lifted up (in our eyes) much higher than they should be. There is nothing wrong with honoring your pastor/leadership. I believe that we should give honor where it is due. But I also acknowledge that their are indeed people who have no idea about anything that the scripture teaches and are 100% believing what their pastor says is indeed scriptural. That is, in my opinion, dangerous waters. You risk following a blind man into the ditch if you donít study to show thyself approved. Trust is a wonderful thing...but itís a very dangerous thing when done blindly


I could say so much about a circumstance happening at this time with a gentleman that I dearly love...but Iíll simply say that you are dead on with this assessment

This is a familiar situation. If youíve been around Apostolic/Pentecostal churches very many years, you have likely experienced this first hand or know someone who has. Many times people ďvote with their feetĒ to at least some extent. Some move along, sometimes the church recuperates and moves past it, sometimes not so much.

I have seen a thriving church slowly wither away to a shell of its former self. You mention TS. He has experienced being on the wrong side of nepotism himself. Often the assistant pastor gets looked over even after being promised to be the successor. Iíve seen it several times. When it comes to relinquishing money and power, and power over money plans are made and promises given that are often not honored.

Of course the proper way to handle the situation would be to try out maybe three prospects and let the membership vote. One option on the SECRET ballot should be none of the above. I have seen this option receive as many votes and in some cases more votes than the prospects did. If none of the prospects carry a simple majority at least, they probably shouldnít be considered. Find three more prospects and rinse and repeat.

Iíve seen a church that I know well go for two years without a pastor in the sense that is commonly understood and they did just fine. The elders tended to business and either preached and taught themselves or scheduled someone to do so. It worked very well. And the church was a desirable church and a healthy one. In my opinion, if they had someone forced on them, they would have resented it, and rightfully so.

Every reasonable effort should be made in consideration of the church family imho.

Roberts Rules of Order is a valuable resource in these situations. Preachers and pastors often disagree with me on this.

leftcoast1 03-21-2021 09:12 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Well said.
I don't know the whole TS situation but I can imagine seeing another blood related rookie being promoted would rub someone that talented the wrong way.

I stand by the suggestion of at least sending your son off to an accredited seminary/Bible school assuming they are ready to lead your church.

Tithesmeister 03-21-2021 09:40 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leftcoast1 (Post 1601955)
Well said.
I don't know the whole TS situation but I can imagine seeing another blood related rookie being promoted would rub someone that talented the wrong way.

I stand by the suggestion of at least sending your son off to an accredited seminary/Bible school assuming they are ready to lead your church.

Itís not about if theyíve been to seminary. At least it isnít to me. Iíve been around so many that have been to seminary that have buyers remorse. I canít tell you how many have told me that the most valuable thing they got at Bible college was their spouse. And many didnít even get a spouse. Thatís why IBC is known as Indiana Bridal College.

To pretend that young, dedicated, devout young apostolics have to have seminary to be qualified is perhaps not the best idea at all. I think it can be a good thing but it certainly isnít a cure all. The Bible says that a bishop shouldnít be a novice. He should rule his house well. Some of these young preachers donít have a house or barely do. And they are novices. Therefore they are not qualified, regardless of whether theyíve been to seminary. But often these rules are thrown out the window when the pastors son is up for consideration.

aegsm76 03-22-2021 09:51 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Just some "generic" comments here.
I grew up in a church where most of the young people went to Bible School.
And almost all those that did are still heavily involved in the work of God, today.
However, my home church was also a very much Bible TEACHING church.
Which I feel we have somewhat lost today and have become more focused on the "emotional" side of Pentecost.
I would say that if someone who is a "novice" or very young is involved in ministry/preaching/pastoring, they need a good system of mentorship from some seasoned saints/pastors.

Just one more random thought.
I have seen church boards "ruin" as many churches as I have seen pastors.
Maybe more.

Tithesmeister 03-22-2021 05:18 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76 (Post 1601963)
Just some "generic" comments here.
I grew up in a church where most of the young people went to Bible School.
And almost all those that did are still heavily involved in the work of God, today.
However, my home church was also a very much Bible TEACHING church.
Which I feel we have somewhat lost today and have become more focused on the "emotional" side of Pentecost.
I would say that if someone who is a "novice" or very young is involved in ministry/preaching/pastoring, they need a good system of mentorship from some seasoned saints/pastors.

Just one more random thought.
I have seen church boards "ruin" as many churches as I have seen pastors.
Maybe more.

There is a right way to take care of church decisions. It doesnít mean that itís perfect or that there will not be mistakes. I think there should always be a board. I think that board should make recommendations to the church body. I think that the membership should vote by secret ballot. It may not be a perfect system, but it is a good system.

And I would have to disagree with you on the question of whether church boards ruin as many churches as pastors. Iíve seen many churches protected by a good board of deacons.

And thereís this . . .

1Cor.6

[1] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
[2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
[3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
[4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

Basically every decision is a judgement call. Paul says who should make the judgement. I donít think anyone would believe that the pastor is the least esteemed in the church.

Generally the single pastor being in charge of a church is not biblical church government anyway. So thereís that.

leftcoast1 03-24-2021 05:35 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1601956)
Itís not about if theyíve been to seminary. At least it isnít to me. Iíve been around so many that have been to seminary that have buyers remorse. I canít tell you how many have told me that the most valuable thing they got at Bible college was their spouse. And many didnít even get a spouse. Thatís why IBC is known as Indiana Bridal College.

To pretend that young, dedicated, devout young apostolics have to have seminary to be qualified is perhaps not the best idea at all. I think it can be a good thing but it certainly isnít a cure all. The Bible says that a bishop shouldnít be a novice. He should rule his house well. Some of these young preachers donít have a house or barely do. And they are novices. Therefore they are not qualified, regardless of whether theyíve been to seminary. But often these rules are thrown out the window when the pastors son is up for consideration.


Iím referring to a real seminary or school of theological instruction. Not IBC or similar. Most instructors at UPCI sponsored Bible Schools did not have graduate degrees 20 years ago. That has started to change a little. A qualified seminary will teach you how to systematically teach the Bible. Your thoughts and viewpoints will evolve but the foundation is extremely important.

loran adkins 03-25-2021 06:54 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by leftcoast1 (Post 1602030)
Iím referring to a real seminary or school of theological instruction. Not IBC or similar. Most instructors at UPCI sponsored Bible Schools did not have graduate degrees 20 years ago. That has started to change a little. A qualified seminary will teach you how to systematically teach the Bible. Your thoughts and viewpoints will evolve but the foundation is extremely important.

Please show me in scripture where anyone went to seminary.

returnman 03-25-2021 08:11 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by loran adkins (Post 1602037)
Please show me in scripture where anyone went to seminary.

This is western culture brother, 2000 years removed. Apostolic churches practice many things not covered in scripture and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The ministry like any occupation didn't emphasize formal education as late as the mid 20th century. In fact, most early ministers of the oneness movement had no more than a 6 grade education. It's about where we are as a society and bettering ourselves to serve in as broad a manner as possible. When I went through a divorce just over 10 years ago the pastor, a church I had not been attending very long, made the statement more than once "I'm not a marriage counselor." Well, he probably should be or at least have the basic training to be you'd think.

Esaias 03-25-2021 10:12 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman (Post 1602038)
This is western culture brother, 2000 years removed. Apostolic churches practice many things not covered in scripture and that's not necessarily a bad thing. The ministry like any occupation didn't emphasize formal education as late as the mid 20th century. In fact, most early ministers of the oneness movement had no more than a 6 grade education. It's about where we are as a society and bettering ourselves to serve in as broad a manner as possible. When I went through a divorce just over 10 years ago the pastor, a church I had not been attending very long, made the statement more than once "I'm not a marriage counselor." Well, he probably should be or at least have the basic training to be you'd think.

We've had seminaries available for over 150 years+. And just look at how solidly conservative stick-to-Bible they are! No wonder the nation has improved greatly in its general moral condition!

james34 03-25-2021 01:25 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1601838)
Brethren, please change the course of this thread to more generically discuss the merits or lack thereof regarding pastoral nepotism, and leave off the specifics and personal names of the church in question, or I will lock the thread.

Ima be honest, I donít know if I have offended or not, I donít even know what a nepotism is.
Iím guessing if I had done it ď I would knowĒ , so safe to assume I havenít nepotismed?

coksiw 03-25-2021 01:27 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Jesus chose disciples that were not precisely that educated in the Scriptures. There were fishermen and a tax collector among his disciples. However, Jesus did not leave them uneducated regarding the Word of God. Matthew, the tax collector, considered a traitor, and probably banned from synagogues, wrote a Gospel well structured for didactic teaching, and full of Old Testament references. Peter, a fisherman, preached his first Sermon in the Day of Pentecost with several Scriptures references and reasoning (wisdom) to prove his points, in a very anointed way. Luke recorded that the religious leaders at the time were very astonished at the wisdom of Peter. That wisdom came from dedication, preparation and anointing. They all spent three years under the direct training of Jesus.

They didn't call it Seminaries, instead, they had a different system, but at the end of the day, it is preparation.

The kind of preparation matters. Are you preparing people to think or to echo exactly what you tell them without questioning? When you prepare you are also teaching an attitude. Going through preparation doesn't mean you are going to discover the truth, otherwise all those trinitarians that are going to Seminaries would have discovered the truth. At the end of the day, it is still a human system.

Tithesmeister 03-25-2021 03:44 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602043)
Jesus chose disciples that were not precisely that educated in the Scriptures. There were fishermen and a tax collector among his disciples. However, Jesus did not leave them uneducated regarding the Word of God. Matthew, the tax collector, considered a traitor, and probably banned from synagogues, wrote a Gospel well structured for didactic teaching, and full of Old Testament references. Peter, a fisherman, preached his first Sermon in the Day of Pentecost with several Scriptures references and reasoning (wisdom) to prove his points, in a very anointed way. Luke recorded that the religious leaders at the time were very astonished at the wisdom of Peter. That wisdom came from dedication, preparation and anointing. They all spent three years under the direct training of Jesus.

They didn't call it Seminaries, instead, they had a different system, but at the end of the day, it is preparation.

The kind of preparation matters. Are you preparing people to think or to echo exactly what you tell them without questioning? When you prepare you are also teaching an attitude. Going through preparation doesn't mean you are going to discover the truth, otherwise all those trinitarians that are going to Seminaries would have discovered the truth. At the end of the day, it is still a human system.

This is a very well balanced analysis. :thumbsup

Scott Pitta 03-26-2021 01:46 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Nepotism can be avoided by having specific features in the church bylaws and constitution detailing how new pastors are installed. Combine that with a church board that functions at a high level, and the chance of nepotism is quote low.

So if two thirds of the voting members are required for a minister to become the new pastor, then the new pastor is determined by the congregation, not by the outgoing pastor.

Another quality feature would be if the bylaws had a feature where a pulpit committee vets the applications for the vacant pastorate. The committee sifts through the pile of applications and presents the best of the candidates to the congregation.

Just my two cents.

Tithesmeister 03-26-2021 04:46 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1602073)
Nepotism can be avoided by having specific features in the church bylaws and constitution detailing how new pastors are installed. Combine that with a church board that functions at a high level, and the chance of nepotism is quote low.

So if two thirds of the voting members are required for a minister to become the new pastor, then the new pastor is determined by the congregation, not by the outgoing pastor.

Another quality feature would be if the bylaws had a feature where a pulpit committee vets the applications for the vacant pastorate. The committee sifts through the pile of applications and presents the best of the candidates to the congregation.

Just my two cents.

Just good old consideration of the members. And these bylaws need to be established when you DONíT need them. That way, when the time comes, you have the procedure in place and ready to deploy.

I totally agree Scott.

Tithesmeister 03-26-2021 04:55 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1602041)
We've had seminaries available for over 150 years+. And just look at how solidly conservative stick-to-Bible they are! No wonder the nation has improved greatly in its general moral condition!

Most of the liberal universities (but Iím being redundant) that youíve heard of, started out as Bible schools. Then they always seem to drift towards liberalism. I think this is established fact. Iíd like to hear ideas about why that seems to be so consistently true. I have my theories, but I wouldnít want to bias the data towards my view.

Originalist 03-26-2021 06:26 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta (Post 1602073)
Nepotism can be avoided by having specific features in the church bylaws and constitution detailing how new pastors are installed. Combine that with a church board that functions at a high level, and the chance of nepotism is quote low.

So if two thirds of the voting members are required for a minister to become the new pastor, then the new pastor is determined by the congregation, not by the outgoing pastor.

Another quality feature would be if the bylaws had a feature where a pulpit committee vets the applications for the vacant pastorate. The committee sifts through the pile of applications and presents the best of the candidates to the congregation.

Just my two cents.

Great post.

In the Assemblies of God, every church is sovereign. But to be an AG affiliate church, local assemblies must conform to certain methods of choosing a pastor. The District does not get involved. Though it is not a denomination in the truest sense, churches and pastors must adhere to the AG Constitution. Every AG church is required to have a deacon board. If a pastor departs from AG teaching, the church must either boot him or be expelled as a constituent member congregation. Fat chance that the UPCI will ever adopt any such system.

votivesoul 03-27-2021 08:26 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
The more I think about what I've read in this thread, the more I realize none of this looks like the Church Jesus said He would build and indeed, began to build, in the Gospels, then in Acts.

Esaias 03-27-2021 10:05 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602111)
The more I think about what I've read in this thread, the more I realize none of this looks like the Church Jesus said He would build and indeed, began to build, in the Gospels, then in Acts.

:thumbsup
What's being described in this thread is a couple business models, not an ekklesia.

loran adkins 03-28-2021 05:13 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
The funny thing is that we don't have a working example of what the home church was set up like in the NT. Especially what the local church was patterned after. The best we have is what the priesthood was set up like in the OT. But Regardless of what power they had over the people was, they had, one thing you cannot get away from was that they were from one family. They were not chosen by the people.

Esaias 03-28-2021 06:23 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by loran adkins (Post 1602119)
The funny thing is that we don't have a working example of what the home church was set up like in the NT. Especially what the local church was patterned after.

Wrong.

Originalist 03-28-2021 06:23 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by loran adkins (Post 1602119)
The funny thing is that we don't have a working example of what the home church was set up like in the NT. Especially what the local church was patterned after. The best we have is what the priesthood was set up like in the OT. But Regardless of what power they had over the people was, they had, one thing you cannot get away from was that they were from one family. They were not chosen by the people.

Initially, the Apostles appointed elders in every city where the gospel had just been received, either directly or through someone they appointed to do so, like Titus. But at that point, who else was going to do it? Later, we see the people being told to appoint deacons, and we also see people desiring the office of Bishop. While scripture is vague on the matter, it seems logical and reasonable to imagine that if local churches were appointing deacons, then they might also have had a hand in grooming and appointing those in their midst who wanted to become Bishops. If someone in a house church hundreds of miles from the Apostles was interested in becoming a member of the elder team in that city or region, who else was going to appoint them?

As for the elder-appointees being "from one family," where do you see that? Most churches had multiple elders, depending on the size. There is nothing that says they were from one family in each city. If a city had 10 elders, some of them certainly could have been related. But there is not a familial line of succession mentioned, either.

Nicodemus1968 03-28-2021 07:59 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by loran adkins (Post 1602119)
The funny thing is that we don't have a working example of what the home church was set up like in the NT. Especially what the local church was patterned after. The best we have is what the priesthood was set up like in the OT. But Regardless of what power they had over the people was, they had, one thing you cannot get away from was that they were from one family. They were not chosen by the people.

Everyone has a psalm, everyone has a proverb....

One says the ministry should be counseled to choose a replacement, one says the church members should choose.

Acts 5:38-39
[38] And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
[39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.


I understand that this portion isnít talking about choosing a Pastor for a local assembly. Yet, I believe the principle still applies. If it is the wisdom and council of men, then it will come to nothing. Yet, if it is of God, then youíre fighting against God.

Brother, the ministry could get together and cast lots, and some will disagree.

Youíre never going to have a 100% approval for anything.

TJJJ 03-28-2021 06:26 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
What is really amazing is that we have 11 pages of commentary on something that is really none of our affair. No one here goes to that church, no one here has family or contact with that church, (so they say) seems to me we ought to take from Proverbs.

Pro 26:17 He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.

Originalist 03-28-2021 07:41 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 1602142)
What is really amazing is that we have 11 pages of commentary on something that is really none of our affair. No one here goes to that church, no one here has family or contact with that church, (so they say) seems to me we ought to take from Proverbs.

Pro 26:17 He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.

The TOPIC is not about that one church, and it is a valid topic. The topic is about that practice or custom.

coksiw 03-28-2021 08:02 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by loran adkins (Post 1602119)
The funny thing is that we don't have a working example of what the home church was set up like in the NT. Especially what the local church was patterned after. The best we have is what the priesthood was set up like in the OT. But Regardless of what power they had over the people was, they had, one thing you cannot get away from was that they were from one family. They were not chosen by the people.

Google Congregationalist polity and Presbyterian polity. It has been around for centuries.
Google also ďChurches of ChristĒ for a working example.

returnman 03-30-2021 08:08 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602085)
Great post.

In the Assemblies of God, every church is sovereign. But to be an AG affiliate church, local assemblies must conform to certain methods of choosing a pastor. The District does not get involved. Though it is not a denomination in the truest sense, churches and pastors must adhere to the AG Constitution. Every AG church is required to have a deacon board. If a pastor departs from AG teaching, the church must either boot him or be expelled as a constituent member congregation. Fat chance that the UPCI will ever adopt any such system.

Years ago I got some insight into why the ministers that became the ACI left the UPC in the late 60's. From what I was told it had to do with being accountable to district officials where they felt they were over stepping authority. If you look at the typical church affiliated with that movement you'll find a very totalitarian form of church government simply put, the pastor is the decision maker top to bottom. The only input he would ever get regarding passing of his pastoral duties would be from his peers. Yielding that to the local church would be a sign of weakness and loss of control.

Originalist 03-30-2021 11:34 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman (Post 1602160)
Years ago I got some insight into why the ministers that became the ACI left the UPC in the late 60's. From what I was told it had to do with being accountable to district officials where they felt they were over stepping authority. If you look at the typical church affiliated with that movement you'll find a very totalitarian form of church government simply put, the pastor is the decision maker top to bottom. The only input he would ever get regarding passing of his pastoral duties would be from his peers. Yielding that to the local church would be a sign of weakness and loss of control.

And THAT, not doctrine, is why I left the UPCI.

Tithesmeister 03-30-2021 11:47 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman (Post 1602160)
Years ago I got some insight into why the ministers that became the ACI left the UPC in the late 60's. From what I was told it had to do with being accountable to district officials where they felt they were over stepping authority. If you look at the typical church affiliated with that movement you'll find a very totalitarian form of church government simply put, the pastor is the decision maker top to bottom. The only input he would ever get regarding passing of his pastoral duties would be from his peers. Yielding that to the local church would be a sign of weakness and loss of control.

That sounds like the same reason that the AMF left the UPCI.

TakingDominion 03-30-2021 02:12 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602162)
That sounds like the same reason that the AMF left the UPCI.

ACI/AMF are the same organization... they had to change their name at one point and then changed back at least once.

Tithesmeister 03-30-2021 02:43 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TakingDominion (Post 1602164)
ACI/AMF are the same organization... they had to change their name at one point and then changed back at least once.

I do seem to remember that now that you mention it. No wonder it sounded familiar.

coksiw 03-30-2021 02:53 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TakingDominion (Post 1602164)
ACI/AMF are the same organization... they had to change their name at one point and then changed back at least once.

What is ACI/AMF? Never heard of those acronyms.

Nicodemus1968 03-30-2021 06:35 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602166)
What is ACI/AMF? Never heard of those acronyms.

AMF:
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship

This group came into play in the 1960ís, ministers that were tired of the politics of the UPC. Ministers like Verbal Bean, C.R. Free, Murray Burr, formed the fellowship. In one of Bro. Burrs books he states his disappointment how the fellowship is now just a political organization.

coksiw 03-30-2021 06:44 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602171)
AMF:
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship

This group came into play in the 1960ís, ministers that were tired of the politics of the UPC. Ministers like Verbal Bean, C.R. Free, Murray Burr, formed the fellowship. In one of Bro. Burrs books he states his disappointment how the fellowship is now just a political organization.

All their links on FB are messed up. None of them work. It does not feel like a serious start.

Nicodemus1968 03-31-2021 04:22 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602172)
All their links on FB are messed up. None of them work. It does not feel like a serious start.

Look up the thread “Who was Harry Morse” and go to page 96. Scott P. and myself discussed the start up of the AMF.

returnman 03-31-2021 08:00 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602171)
AMF:
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship

This group came into play in the 1960ís, ministers that were tired of the politics of the UPC. Ministers like Verbal Bean, C.R. Free, Murray Burr, formed the fellowship. In one of Bro. Burrs books he states his disappointment how the fellowship is now just a political organization.

For many years and even into the 90's they where still bashing the UPC calling out specific names. I was part of a very conservative UPC church that fellow shipped with one of the ACI churches. No way would I have taken a visitor to one of their services to hear all that bashing.


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