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coksiw 03-31-2021 08:56 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602174)
Look up the thread ďWho was Harry MorseĒ and go to page 96. Scott P. and myself discussed the start up of the AMF.

Thank you! Very interesting.

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 09:11 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman (Post 1602175)
For many years and even into the 90's they where still bashing the UPC calling out specific names. I was part of a very conservative UPC church that fellow shipped with one of the ACI churches. No way would I have taken a visitor to one of their services to hear all that bashing.

Yes they did. I remember the bashing. They were, and still are to some extent, bashing the UPCI. They have become more subtle about it, but it still happens.

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 09:46 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602171)
AMF:
Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship

This group came into play in the 1960ís, ministers that were tired of the politics of the UPC. Ministers like Verbal Bean, C.R. Free, Murray Burr, formed the fellowship. In one of Bro. Burrs books he states his disappointment how the fellowship is now just a political organization.

What is interesting is that M.B. ran for one of the UPCI district superintendents positions in Texas (I believe they have three or four?) and was not elected. He later wrote a paper or book criticizing the UPCI organization and got kicked out of the UPCI.

The matter of contention was not only about the structure of the administration of the UPCI and the sovereignty of the local church , it was also a fight about . . .




TITHES.

Imagine that.

Nicodemus1968 03-31-2021 09:59 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602179)
What is interesting is that M.B. ran for one of the UPCI district superintendents positions in Texas (I believe they have three or four?) and was not elected. He later wrote a paper or book criticizing the UPCI organization and got kicked out of the UPCI.

The matter of contention was not only about the structure of the administration of the UPCI and the sovereignty of the local church , it was also a fight about . . .




TITHES.

Imagine that.

I did not know that.

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 10:16 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602181)
I did not know that.

Itís in the book. I donít remember the name but itís something like ďThe Structure of the Church Government ď or something similar. Written by Murray Burr. I have the book, somewhere.

What is ironic is the reality of them fussing over tithes. They are both wrong, so it is easy to point out the faults and failures of the opposing views. But they donít seem to ever think of their own position and the total lack of scriptural support for their own views.

returnman 03-31-2021 02:22 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602179)
What is interesting is that M.B. ran for one of the UPCI district superintendents positions in Texas (I believe they have three or four?) and was not elected. He later wrote a paper or book criticizing the UPCI organization and got kicked out of the UPCI.

The matter of contention was not only about the structure of the administration of the UPCI and the sovereignty of the local church , it was also a fight about . . .




TITHES.

Imagine that.

Sour grapes perhaps? Nah. I would have thought both camps would believe in 10% to the local ministry. I'm guessing the structure of ministers paying tithe to the org was the issue. Autonomy, call it what you want but like this original thread, it goes back to an eye on the money. There are many good men who get caught up in it. One in my past, last thing he did before leaving was clean out the tithe account leaving a zero balance to a church of about 50 at the time. Why? It belonged to him in his mind and according to the structure of the organization that he left by the way shortly afterwards.

coksiw 03-31-2021 02:50 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602182)
Itís in the book. I donít remember the name but itís something like ďThe Structure of the Church Government ď or something similar. Written by Murray Burr. I have the book, somewhere.

What is ironic is the reality of them fussing over tithes. They are both wrong, so it is easy to point out the faults and failures of the opposing views. But they donít seem to ever think of their own position and the total lack of scriptural support for their own views.

Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman (Post 1602183)
Sour grapes perhaps? Nah. I would have thought both camps would believe in 10% to the local ministry. I'm guessing the structure of ministers paying tithe to the org was the issue. Autonomy, call it what you want but like this original thread, it goes back to an eye on the money. There are many good men who get caught up in it. One in my past, last thing he did before leaving was clean out the tithe account leaving a zero balance to a church of about 50 at the time. Why? It belonged to him in his mind and according to the structure of the organization that he left by the way shortly afterwards.

I suspected something like that was involved, but I didnít want to say it :lol

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 03:15 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by returnman (Post 1602183)
Sour grapes perhaps? Nah. I would have thought both camps would believe in 10% to the local ministry. I'm guessing the structure of ministers paying tithe to the org was the issue. Autonomy, call it what you want but like this original thread, it goes back to an eye on the money. There are many good men who get caught up in it. One in my past, last thing he did before leaving was clean out the tithe account leaving a zero balance to a church of about 50 at the time. Why? It belonged to him in his mind and according to the structure of the organization that he left by the way shortly afterwards.

On point one you are right.

Point two? Right again. IIRC

Maybe some pastor in the UPCI could shed some light on the practice of tithing in the UPCI, specifically in regards to tithing to the organization from the local pastors.

Anyone?

TakingDominion 03-31-2021 03:29 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602185)
On point one you are right.

Point two? Right again. IIRC

Maybe some pastor in the UPCI could shed some light on the practice of tithing in the UPCI, specifically in regards to tithing to the organization from the local pastors.

Anyone?

Not in the UPC but I do know that the mothership does request that every Pastor send a tithe of the tithe to their local district. From what I have been told its more of a suggestion than a requirement and so very few actually do it.

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 04:02 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TakingDominion (Post 1602186)
Not in the UPC but I do know that the mothership does request that every Pastor send a tithe of the tithe to their local district. From what I have been told its more of a suggestion than a requirement and so very few actually do it.

Very interesting. So it is a suggestion to the pastors, but it is sometimes preached by the pastors as essential to salvation.

How bout dat?!

Now, to follow up to the next level; Does the district need to tithe on the tithe to the national?

Would it be local to regional? Regional to district? District to national, etc.?

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 04:17 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602111)
The more I think about what I've read in this thread, the more I realize none of this looks like the Church Jesus said He would build and indeed, began to build, in the Gospels, then in Acts.

Ainít it so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1602118)
:thumbsup
What's being described in this thread is a couple business models, not an ekklesia.

Yes, it is a business model. Or two. Sometimes a church starts a franchise, umm sorry, I meant to say a daughter work. If the business plan works , one church can have five or more franchises. And sometimes the CEOs (I mean pastors) argue with the competition about members moving etc.. I heard of one pastor who offered a discount on tithing to a wealthy member. He said if he moved to his church he would only have to pay five percent. (Volume discount?)

Maybe he was joking, but the family of the dear brother was thinking it was sincere.

Shouldnít good customers get a discount? From good businesses?

Would it be better to receive five percent from a thousand? Or ten percent from fifty?

Itís the Sam Walton method of salvation!! Lower prices, more volume!
The mega-church model!!

coksiw 03-31-2021 07:00 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602189)
Ainít it so?



Yes, it is a business model. Or two. Sometimes a church starts a franchise, umm sorry, I meant to say a daughter work. If the business plan works , one church can have five or more franchises. And sometimes the CEOs (I mean pastors) argue with the competition about members moving etc.. I heard of one pastor who offered a discount on tithing to a wealthy member. He said if he moved to his church he would only have to pay five percent. (Volume discount?)

Maybe he was joking, but the family of the dear brother was thinking it was sincere.

Shouldnít good customers get a discount? From good businesses?

Would it be better to receive five percent from a thousand? Or ten percent from fifty?

Itís the Sam Walton method of salvation!! Lower prices, more volume!
The mega-church model!!

No, that's corruption.

Tithesmeister 03-31-2021 07:41 PM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602191)
No, that's corruption.

Brother,

The whole modern tithe system is corrupt. Whatís the use getting squeamish now? Thatís what is so ironic about Murray Burr and the UPCI fighting about tithes. They were both just as wrong as could be. But they were pointing out where the other lacked scripture to support their position. And they were absolutely right about that. BOTH sides were woefully lacking In scriptural support. But they couldnít realize that neither side was right. Both sides were wrong. And this is our leadership, both in and outside the confines of the various organizations. They go blind when they get to the subject of money. And they call the givers stingy and in some cases question their salvation. It is really sad, but at the same time itís sort of funny.

coksiw 04-01-2021 08:33 AM

Re: Sons Inheriting Churches from Fathers $$$
 
I have seen several Baptist churches that do practice plurality of elders and/or free-will giving.

This is an example of a group of independent Baptist churches that do not teach tithing and do believe in plurality of elders:

https://mcleanbible.org

https://mcleanbible.org/wp-content/u...ts_Booklet.pdf

They are growing. Now the fellowship has five churches.


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