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-   -   The Remission is Different from Forgiveness Myth (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=18356)

SDG 09-06-2008 08:34 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 584273)
guess I am dumb is it not an interchangeable word?

Of course ... they are ....

No ... YOU ARE BRILLIANT.

Steve Epley 09-06-2008 08:54 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 584270)
And yet you do the same with the English KJV ... salvation hangs on your use of these two separate words that you have given distinct meanings when the apostles did not .... thus shutting the door on a whole segment of people because they don't speak Olde English ... Typical.

Dan you are incorrect IF I am wrong it only means sins are forgiven for the penitent at baptism. I have said they are forgiven at repentance and remitted at baptism a person is LOST without repentance and baptism so the end result is the same.

SDG 09-06-2008 08:57 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 584282)
Dan you are incorrect IF I am wrong it only means sins are forgiven for the penitent at baptism. I have said they are forgiven at repentance and remitted at baptism a person is LOST without repentance and baptism so the end result is the same.

And yet TimLan's assertion also holds true ... as in the end for most 3 steppers it doesn't matter if one repents and is baptized ... one is lost without glossilalia.

mizpeh 09-06-2008 09:01 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 584286)
And yet TimLan's assertion also holds true ... as in the end for most 3 steppers it doesn't matter if one repents and is baptized ... one is lost without glossilalia.

TimLan's assertion is ridiculous. He asserted that "three steppers" believe sins are forgiven when someone speaks in tongues!

Quote:

To a "three-stepper", your sins are not forgiven until you've spoken in tongues.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:01 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 584286)
And yet TimLan's assertion also holds true ... as in the end for most 3 steppers it doesn't matter if one repents and is baptized ... one is lost without glossilalia ....

And since most believe some don't get to step 3 or get hung up in New Birth limbo by not ... speaking in tongues .... since they have not truly repented ... they were never saved in the first place, right?

BTW .... first generation OPs (Urshan, Haywood, etc,) would shudder at your response.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:11 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 584288)
TimLan's assertion is ridiculous. He asserted that "three steppers" believe sins are forgiven when someone speaks in tongues!

He's not far from the truth ....

I think there is a notion that if one completes steps one and two but is hung up on not being able to speak in tongues and hence be born again/saved it's because you were never forgiven in the first place because your repentance wasn't "genuine" or full ...

Bernard makes this assertion in his New Birth book also ...

Quote:

Guidelines for Altar Work

It is important that those who pray with seekers at the altar have a correct understanding of repentance. Below are some practical guidelines based on our discussion.

(1) We should emphasize the moving of God's Spirit, not gimmicks or techniques. Special phrases or motions cannot substitute for repentance.

(2) We should attempt to discern where the seeker is spiritually. If he has not fully repented, we should not prematurely force him to express joy and expect the Spirit. Once he has repented, then we can encourage him to praise God and believe for the Spirit.

(3) We can put ourselves in the seeker's position and pray with him. This will show him how to pray and will help us pray with a burden.

(4) If the seeker does not seem to be making progress, there may be several problems, each of which requires a different approach. The problem may be a failure to understand what repentance is, a refusal to surrender everything to God, a lack of desire (hunger, desperation, sense of urgency), a lack of godly sorrow, or a lack of faith.

(5) We must not try to teach him how to speak in tongues. This sign will come as the Spirit gives utterance. Instead of stressing only that he should yield his tongue to God, we should stress that he should surrender his whole mind and life to God. When the seeker yields everything to God, concentrates totally on Him, and exercises faith, he will be able to yield his tongue to God.

(6) Let us avoid distracting practices such as shaking the seeker, pounding him, forcing him to do certain things, giving conflicting advice, or otherwise annoying him. People often repent and receive the Spirit in spite of, not because of, the altar workers.

If the seeker is sincere and ready to repent, he will receive the Spirit in a short time. If he does not, there is something lacking in his repentance or in his faith. In such a case, altar workers need to be spiritually sensitive and knowledgeable so they can help him overcome these difficulties.
I find this very troubling .... in one breathe he says repentance is a full turning and is must be genuine.... yet this turning is capable through totally concentrating on him (mental assent?) in an altar session then one's tongue will be yielded to the Spirit ... and one is quickened to life .... but still dead in sin if not water baptized????

I find even more puzzling if this person has not yet been fully forgiven ... having not been baptized ... but is eligible to be filled w/ God's Spirit indwelling them while still dead in sin or completely forgiven.

And how does an altar worker fully discern in a 10 minute prayer session where a seeker is ...spiritually ... This seems very odd. Also the task in placing this salvational moment of tongue talking on the shoulders of an altar worker in convincing a seeker that they are not fully repented and yet says that one receives the Spirit in spite of the workers ....

this is all .... well ....

The dilemmas presented here are too obvious. The assumptions "wrapped in spiritual discernment" made here can also be disastrous and/or discouraging to the new believer to the point where they can walk away thinking they are not "saveable" ....

This has been stated by many who did not speak in tongues "right away".

mizpeh 09-06-2008 09:31 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 584293)
He's not far from the truth ....

I think there is a notion that if one completes steps one and two but is hung up on not being able to speak in tongues and hence be born again/saved it's because you were never forgiven in the first place because your repentance wasn't "genuine" or full ...

Bernard makes this assertion in his New Birth book also ...



I find this very troubling .... in one breathe he says repentance is a full turning and is must be genuine.... yet this turning is capable through totally concentrating on him (mental assent?) in an altar session then one's tongue will be yielded to the Spirit ... and one is quickened to life .... but still dead in sin if not water baptized????

I find even more puzzling if this person has not yet been fully forgiven ... having not been baptized ... but is eligible to be filled w/ God's Spirit indwelling them while still dead in sin or completely forgiven.

And how does an altar worker fully discern in a 10 minute prayer session where a seeker is spiritually ... very odd.

The dilemmas presented here are too obvious. The assumptions made can be disastrous and/or discouraging to the new believer

Dan, it amazes me what conclusions you came up with from DB's article on altar work!

He never mentioned baptism.

He never mentioned being dead in sin or completely forgiven. You are putting your theology into what he is saying.

He never defines repentance.

You seem to be twisting DB's words into knots. Why don't you put some strings on DB and words in his mouth! Then you can make DB say whatever you want even "To a "three-stepper", your sins are not forgiven until you've spoken in tongues. " Since you agree with TimLan "He's not far from the truth ...." and are looking for ways to try and prove it.


DB seems to be saying that with true faith and repentance a person should expect to receive the Holy Spirit. That is what the Bible portrays in Acts 10.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:34 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 584301)
Dan, it amazes me what conclusions you came up with from DB's article on altar work!

He never mentioned baptism.

He never mentioned being dead in sin or completely forgiven. You are putting your theology into what he is saying.

He never defines repentance.

You seem to be twisting DB's words into knots. Why don't you put some strings on DB and words in his mouth! Then you can make DB say whatever you want even "To a "three-stepper", your sins are not forgiven until you've spoken in tongues. " Since you agree with TimLan "He's not far from the truth ...." and are looking for ways to try and prove it.


DB seems to be saying that with true faith and repentance a person should expect to receive the Holy Spirit. That is what the Bible portrays in Acts 10.

These guidelines Mizpeh come from his chapter on repentance (Chapter 5) ... where he also stated water baptism and repentance are required for complete forgiveness ... He also defines repentance.

Maybe sourcing the page and seeing that his thoughts are all linked in this chapter and book on the New Birth might mitigate some of your objections based on "frustration" w me adding to his thoughts?

You will notice these guidelines are in a subheading in his chapter that speaks of the things you say he did not speak of ...

His words on this topic ... need no twisting and it's all his theology ....


http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/New-Ch5.htm

Praxeas 09-06-2008 09:35 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 584282)
Dan you are incorrect IF I am wrong it only means sins are forgiven for the penitent at baptism. I have said they are forgiven at repentance and remitted at baptism a person is LOST without repentance and baptism so the end result is the same.

Elder, can you explain the difference between forgiven and remitted and explain why the greek word for remission is the same for forgiveness? Shouldn't they be two different words?

mizpeh 09-06-2008 09:39 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 584306)
Elder, can you explain the difference between forgiven and remitted and explain why the greek word for remission is the same for forgiveness? Shouldn't they be two different words?

Prax, can't a word have more than one meaning based on context?


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