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SDG 09-06-2008 09:09 AM

The Remission is Different from Forgiveness Myth
 
Many of my Oneness Pentecostal brethren believe who believe in 3 steps to salvation/regeneration often explain their beliefs as expressed by the following poster:

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Quote:
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I do not have the scriptures handy, nor the time to look them all up right now......but I believe from the teachings I have had most of my life (since I was 12, and now I'm 46), that baptism is essential for salvation....although some receive the Holy Ghost prior to baptism, they still need their sins remitted and Jesus' blood applied. Acts 2:38 commands us to be baptized, and does not offer the PROMISE of the Holy Ghost until the 3rd step....Repent, be baptized, and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Consider it is death, burial, and resurrection - death being repentance, dying out to the old life and sin - burial being submersion in water and simultaneous application of Jesus' blood, which is why we do this in His Name (not His titles) - and resurrection being the infilling of the Holy Ghost, whereby we rise to walk in newness of life.

We ae baptized to be saved, not only because Acts 2:38 commands it, but because it applies Jesus' blood, thereby remitting our sins. For without the shedding of blood is no remission of sins....

I can spill grape juice on your white shirt, and sincerely apologize to you for it - but that does not remove the stain on your shirt, even if you forgive me. The stain, or the visible evidence, is not removed until you wash the shirt. When we put our sins under the blood in baptism, then Jesus can no longer see them.


***News flash *****

There is no biblical distinction in the NT between the words remission and forgiveness.

These words are used interchangeably by the Apostles!!!

SDG 09-06-2008 09:11 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Both remission and forgiveness are the English translation of the single Greek noun aphesis or verb aphiemi.

When we examine the words of the disciples, Peter included and those of Jesus ... they do not distinguish between the words forgiveness and remission. This idea is unique to some of my English speaking Oneness brethren of the last century.

The translation of the word “forgiveness” comes from a Greek word Aphesus,and means to bear up and bear away, to separate the sins from the sinner. Fifteen times it is found in the New Testament in the KJV.

Six times it is rendered “forgiveness,” and nine times it is rendered “remission;” but it always means the same thing, to bear up and to bear away.

The NAS and NIV simply translate aphesis as forgiveness ... 15 times.

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If APHESIS MEANS FORGIVENESS/REMISSION ... both are synonymous then why does baptism alone get equated with the WASHING OF SINS ????
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Peter, the preacher at Pentecost, and the holder of the "keys of salvation" as some presume, understood that our sins are wiped away at the point of faith/repentance unlike some of my OP brethren.

In Acts 3:19 he says, Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. ** Note that he believes that when we turn to God through faith in the work of the Lamb our sins are wiped away.

At the house of Cornelius, his message to the Gentiles in that room does not attribute forgiveness/remission/sin washing to baptism but rather he says,

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." -- Acts 10:43

If one reads the bible in Spanish ... which we did growing up... there is no confusion ....

aphesis .... is translated in all verses in the Reina Valera w/ the same word "perdon".... The NIV does this also.

That is why I find this KJV inspired false doctrine of separating both words (forgiveness vs. remission) to mean two separate ideas as being extrabiblical.

Even Dr. Segraves acknowledges this in a 1980's symposium ... and how this relates to the contradictions not only found in presenting this as doctrine but in even in the wording found in the UPCI's Articles of Faith:

Quote:
Quote:

The Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International, under the heading "Repentance and Conversion," presently reads: "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins:1

The context concerns conversion, not the obtaining of forgiveness by a born-again believer, says nothing about water baptism, and would lead one to believe that repentance alone is sufficient to produce forgiveness of sins.2

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?

The Articles of Faith offer no Scripture to support the statement that "pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance."

While the author (an 3 stepping Evangelist call Tim Landry) thoroughly examined the relationship of both repentance and water baptism as they relate to remission of sins in the text of Acts 2:38, he did not discuss the fact that the Fundamental Doctrine of the U.PC.I. does not necessarily endorse this idea.
What we find in the attempt to separate these concepts through semantical cunningness is what happens when we allow a 100 year old soteriological model to be framed by the lens of the King James Version phraseology only to fit a paradigm for salvation and unique revelation. This paradigm has become more exclusivistic and intolerant among many as we enter 4th and 5th generations of the movement.

Every expert on the matter will tell you the same thing ... aphesis means just that --aphesis ... forgiveness, pardon, bearing away of sin, remission .... no change in focus either.

mfblume 09-06-2008 09:12 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
I am three stepper and agree with your claim here about the definitions. Baptism does not forgive sins. Baptism is part of the church's position playing a role in taking one into the body. That is why God gave the vision to Peter to slay and eat unclean animals. Peter never would have baptized the gentiles otherwise, and God was insistent that he do it. So after the got the Holy Ghost, they had to come into the BODY of the Church.

Spirit baptism is God's seal or signature of the covenant contract, and water baptism is the person's seal or signature. Two seals are required for every contract.

mfblume 09-06-2008 09:13 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
It is wrong to exclude baptism from salvation as much as it is wrong to say baptism forgives sins. Y'all are on two different erring extremes.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:13 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
What we find in the attempt to separate these concepts through semantical cunningness is what happens when we allow a 100 year old soteriological model to be framed by the lens of the King James Version phraseology only to fit a paradigm for salvation and unique revelation. This paradigm has become more exclusivistic and intolerant among many as we enter 4th and 5th generations of the movement.

Every expert on the matter will tell you the same thing ... aphesis means just that aphesis ... forgiveness, pardon, bearing away of sin, remission .... no change in focus either.

Growing up we read the bible in Spanish ... there was no confusion in trying to play with word meanings between forgiveness and remission....

Aphesis is translated in all verses in the Reina Valera w/ the same word "perdon" ... or pardon.

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Some Examples - Example 1:
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KIV:

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

NIV:
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Reina Valera:
38 Pedro les dijo: Arrepentíos, y bautícese cada uno de vosotros en el nombre de Jesucristo para perdón de los pecados; y recibiréis el don del Espíritu Santo.

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Example 2:
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Mark 1:4

4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

NIV:
4And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Reina Valera:
4 Bautizaba Juan en el desierto, y predicaba el bautismo de arrepentimiento para perdón de pecados.

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Example 3:
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Reina Valera:

Luke 24

47 y que se predicase en su nombre el arrepentimiento y el perdón de pecados en todas las naciones, comenzando desde Jerusalén.

KJV:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV:
4And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

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I could go on and on.... it applies to all verses with this root word. With one exception in Romans.

To say that repentance brings forgiveness and baptism brings remission only works in a KJV setting .... not in the original Greek ... other English versions ... NIV, NASB, ESV ... or in other languages that use the one word to mean the same as the Apostles expressed it.
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Baptism provides no " sin washing"
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The false premise that remission is a result of a washing that happens at baptism .... while forgiveness is the result of repentance ... is patently false ... and borders on the mysticism found in the doctrine of transubstantiation of the Eucharist.

As is the idea that the blood is only applied in a properly administered baptism in which salvation hangs on the words of the baptizer.

Why do go against the doctrine of the Apostles and their words?

The writer to the Hebrews (chapter 6) tells us blood remits/forgives/washes/ wipes away our sins. Peter, the preacher at Pentecost, tells us that when we repent and turn to God our sins are wiped/blotted away (Acts 3:19)

Inevitably ... some one will ask

What about Acts 2:38 ... ? "For the remission of sins".

Dr. Seagraves adds:

Quote:

Quote:

It would be useful in any current discussion of the relationship between water baptism and the remission of sins to recognize and respond to an objection that is current among some scholars of our day. It is perhaps best expressed in The Bible Knowledge Commentary and suggests that the clause "and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ" is parenthetical, based on the following factors: "

(a) The verb makes a distinction between singular and plural verbs and nouns. The verb `repent' is plural and so is the pronoun `your' in the clause so that your sins maybe forgiven (lit., `unto the remission of your sins,' eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon).

Therefore the verb `repent' must go with the purpose and forgiveness of sins.

On the other hand the imperative `be baptized' is singular, setting it off from the rest of the sentence.

(b) This concept fits with Peter's proclamation in Acts 10:43 in which the same expression `sins may be forgiven' (aphesin harmation) occurs. There it is granted on the basis of faith alone.

(c) In Luke 24:47 and Acts 5:31 the same writer, Luke, indicates that repentance results in remission
of sins."
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Peter, "the holder of the keys", even tells us in his epistle tells us that it does not put away filth. (1 Peter 3)

Lastly,

The following quote holds true to any extrabiblical approach :

"Any doctrine which cannot be solidly supported by scripture must be laid aside, lest we be found to add to or take away from God’s holy Word."

SDG 09-06-2008 09:15 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Even noted 3-stepper and UPCI theologian/apologist, David Bernard recognizes the fallacy of those who seek to separate these to terms.

In his book, The New Birth, the following statements are made:
Quote:
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Forgiveness and Remission

Some people teach that forgiveness and remission are two distinct events, the former occurring at repentance and the latter at water baptism. According to this teaching, at repentance God accepts man's apology and restores him to a personal relationship, and at baptism God removes the record and penalty of past sins. This distinction has some basis in the definitions and KJV usage of the English words. For example, Webster's Dictionary defines forgive as "to cease to feel resentment against (an offender): Pardon" and it defines remit as "to release from the guilt or penalty of… to refrain from exacting… to cancel or refrain from inflicting." Forgiveness conveys the idea of personal reconciliation, while remission connotes a legal settlement.

However, even in English, forgive and remit are often used interchangeably. Webster's Dictionary defines pardon as "to free from penalty… to remit the penalty or forgive." More importantly, there is no distinction between forgiveness and remission in the Greek. There is only one Greek word, aphesis, which the KJV sometimes translates as "forgiveness" (Acts 5:31) and sometimes as "remission" (Acts 2:38). Most later translations, such as the RSV and NIV, use only forgiveness and not remission. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines aphesis as "freedom; (fig.) pardon." Vine's Expository Dictionary says it "denotes a dismissal, release" and defines the verb form, aphiemi, as "primarily, to send forth, send away… denotes besides its other meanings, to remit or forgive."
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He even offers the following chart in an attempt to prove this statement:

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The table demonstrates that the following elements are part of New Testament forgiveness: the blood of Jesus, faith, repentance, the name of Jesus, and water baptism. In the New Testament church we receive forgiveness by repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus, both of which are made possible and effective by the blood of Jesus.
http://respiracreative.com/aphesischart.jpg


One glaring thing, however, is lacking in Brother Benard's fairly sound reasonings about the idea of aphesis ...

He cannot link aphesis/forgiveness/ to a properly administered water baptism ... unless we accept his interpretation of forgiveness is linked to water baptism based on his selective determination of the Greek preposition "eis" or "for".

In 16 of the 17 examples he cites ... repentance ... turning to Jesus and, ultimately, what He did at the Cross through faith results in remission/forgiveness ....

I include the two citations of regarding John's baptism because it was one unto repentance ...

and surely most 3 steppers would say this baptism was not regenerative, not done in His name, or even part of the New Covenant - if one subscribes to dispensationalism.

Also, those who were baptized under John did so in response and as a witness of heeding his call to repent. Keep in mind also, JB was the son of high priest and well versed in the practice of mikveh ritual washings.

It's pretty well agreed that Christian baptism is just an incorporation of the Jewish mikveh.

John the Baptist probably belonged to (or at least was greatly influenced by) the Essenes who practiced mikveh rituals. A couple of centuries before the birth of Jesus, the Jewish teaching incorporated mikveh/batpism into the process by which a gentile converted and became a Jew. When John the Baptist came upon the scene he just had folks immerse themselves to prepare for the Messiah's coming and the Messiah's reign.

Furthermore, JB never told his listeners that their sins would be washed away if they were baptized.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:17 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
You see scripture must harmonize, David ... its basic hermeneutics.

Notice Bernard tried to link his interpretation of Acts 2:38 to the other instances ... yet any fair examination points to the blood of Jesus and/or turning to God in repentance as resulting in forgiveness/remission.

This myopic faulty interpretation of Acts 2:38 has no historical or biblical witness.

Again ... adding to the Word has serious consequences.

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Did John the Baptist think his baptism was for "sin washing"?
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16 of the 17 verses Bernard sought to cite connect aphesis/forgiveness/remission of sin with repentence, turning to Christ/God ....

NOT A PROPERLY ADMINISTERED BAPTISM IN WHICH SALVATION and WASHING OF SINS HANGS ON THE WORDS OF THE BAPTIZER for the blood of Christ to be applied - or even for a dirty soul to be thoroughly cleaned.

Again what is at stake in this discussion is whether it is sound hermeneutics for those who claim that sins are forgiven at repentance while sins are remitted/blotted/washed/wiped away at baptism when the Apostles and Christ DID NOT MAKE THIS DISTINCTION when speaking of forgiveness of sins in their usage of the word APHESIS.

I think we'd all agree that John, son of the priest, Zacarias, made him a Levite with strong doctrine in regards to this practice. It would also be safe to say that his Jewish disciples and John saw these baptisms as part of the Jewish mikveh tradition in which it was used as a witness to a vow made or to show allegiance to a rabbi.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:17 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Did John believe his baptism caused sin washing ... or did he believe that this could only happen looking at Christ through faith looking forward to his sacrifice?

According to Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, John the Baptist preached "a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (baptisma metanoias eis aphesin hamartiôn).

In other words, John preached the possibility of forgiveness of sins on the condition of repentance; the reception of this offer of forgiveness was expressed symbolically by submitting to being dipped in water (the Jordan River) by John. This accounts for why John received the epithet "the baptizer" or "the dipper." (For use of the metaphor of washing with water to convey the idea of eschatological cleansing from sin, see Ezek 36:25-29a; Isa 4:3-5; 1QS 4.19-22.)

So it is explained that Jews from Judea and Jerusalem submitted to being baptized by John while confessing their sins (Mark 1:5; Matt 3:6).
John did not believe sins were forgiven because of his followers were baptized but rather they were baptized because of their repentance.

John the Baptist even pointed to belief in Christ as linked to eternal life and not these ritual cleansings.

In John 3 we find this account:

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An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."
**** Notice that his disciples were discussing mikvehs and were also concerned about the baptisms of Jesus.

Of which part of John's response to his disciples is:

Quote:
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34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
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It should be noted that there exists a reference to John the Baptist in Josephus' Antiquities (18.116-118).

Quote:

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But to some Jews the destruction of Herod's army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted (keleuonta) the Jews to lead righteous lives (areten epaskousin), to practice justice towards their fellows and piety towards God (ta pros allelous dikaiosune kai pros ton theon eusebeia chromenois), and so doing to join in baptism. In his view this was a necessary preliminary if baptism was to be acceptable to God. They must not employ it to gain pardon for whatever sins they committed, but as a consecration of the body (hagneia tou somatos) implying that the soul was already thoroughly cleansed by righteousness.
One commentary about Josephus remarks states:

Quote:

Although he often accommodates his language to Hellenistic thought in his description of Jewish theological beliefs, thereby causing some distortion of meaning, Josephus seems to give an accurate description of the content of John's message. Probably only John's alleged distinction between the cleansing of the "soul" and the "body" is so Hellenized as to need paraphrasing into more Semitic expression. Josephus makes four points about John's message.

* John exhorted Jews to begin to live righteous lives towards one another and towards God. In other words, John preached the necessity of what Jews referred to as repentance (teshuvah), the turning from sin to obedience to the Law.

* John required that those who responded to his exhortation to undergo an immersion in water (baptism).

* John insisted that the cleansing of the "soul" resulted from the repentance and not from baptism. As indicated, this manner of expression is Josephus' accommodation to his non-Jewish readership. What he means by the "cleansing of the soul" is the forgiveness of sins, which he insisted was conditional upon repentance and not baptism.

* John's interpretation of the baptism that he required Jews to undergo was that it was a "consecration of the body," seeing that the "soul" was already cleansed by means of repentance. Probably, by the "consecration of the body," Josephus is referring to ritual lustration. If so, John offered the possibility of both forgiveness and ritual purity.
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Source: abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/LifeJ/JohnBaptist.htm
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Lastly ... we go back to the possible attempt to deflect the obvious - aphesis means aphesis.

The writer provides the meaning and context through his word usage ... it is not up to a translator and/or to pick and choose conveniently to separate their significance to fit paradigms thousands of years later.

One detractor stated:

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I agree with you that aphesis is the root word for both "forgiveness" and "remission". My question is: why did the KJV translators draw distinction in their translation of this, and were there any prior translations which did as well?
First this seems to be unique to the KJV and ....

Because language evolves ... these words could have been very much been used as SYNONYMS ... with no intent in making distinctions ... Who was to know that a small few in Christianity would try to make this distinction between forgiveness and remission hundreds of years later?

There is plenty of biblical precedence, evidence and witness that the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism (Will post later)

I believe when we agree on the meaning of aphesis... which is conclusively agree upon by Trinitarian and Oneness scholars like Bernard and Segraves that trying to separate forgiveness and remission is unsound even contextually ...

and the fact that forgiveness/remission is linked to repentance ...

that we can give a more bible based examination at what meaning to give to the preposotion "eis" ... in Acts 2:38

Let's keep the horse in front of the cart.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:20 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
The following is a post from our friend, Shelby Smith (Adino) ...

I think it merits examination in light of this thread ....

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A post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.

Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.

To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”

Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.


Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

SDG 09-06-2008 09:23 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
The following video delves into the ramifications of apheisis along with the grammatical structure and intent of Peter's words in Acts 2:38:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Urzmrq8zw

SDG 09-06-2008 09:34 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
In light of the agreement among Oneness powerhouse theologians, like Bernard and Segraves.... and a careful, empirical examination by any objective bible student ... regarding the word aphesis and what it signifies in the the NT ...

Such backwoods theological statements like:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams (Post 583353)
Here we go. There was a little girl who went out to play in her brand new dress. She saw a mud puddle and thought "Why not?" and jumped right in. She got her dress filthy. Realizing the wrong she had done, she went to her father in tears of true remorse, saying "Daddy please forgive me!"(repentance). Her dad's heart melts and he says "I forgive you."(forgiveness of sin). She is forgiven and won't be punished, but her dress is still filthy and is not presentable. Her dad would still be ashamed of her in public. Her dad then washes the dress with a healthy dose of spray-n-wash(baptism), and the dress comes out sparkling clean(remission of sin). He then plants a device in the dress(Spirit) that sounds an audible and visible alarm whenever she goes near the mud again(power over sin).

Repentance= forgiveness of sin
Water Baptism in Jesus' Name= remission(washing away) of sin
Holy Spirit Baptism= power over sin

:dance

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583097)
Firstly I have never claimed to be a 3-stepper. Acts 2:38 is the only way for men to be saved since Pentecost.
However Dan is correct sins are forgiven at repentance but not remitted until they are baptized in Jesus Name. My thoughts on this is simple I am a simple person sins were forgiven in the OT but NOT remitted. Man's sins were remitted at Calvary by the blood and through baptism in Jesus Name the penitent recieves that benefit recieved by his shed blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron (Post 420934)
Jesus talks about fruit or manifestation of our faith in our repentance.
Sins are forgiven at Repentance.
Washed away or remitted in water baptism by immersion in Jesus Name.
That wonderful "New life" of the Holy Ghost is come in at Spirit Baptism.

....

Have no place in a serious debate on this topic in the ARENA OF SOUND IDEAS

Steve Epley 09-06-2008 09:34 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 583846)
Many of my Oneness Pentecostal brethren believe who believe in 3 steps to salvation/regeneration often explain their beliefs as expressed by the following poster:

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Quote:




***News flash *****

There is no biblical distinction in the NT between the words remission and forgiveness.

These words are used interchangeably!!!

Dan in our theory and I understand the same Greek word is used so there is no argument from me there. Both are provided by the same Blood-faith. But here is an example 'filled' and baptized with the HG. Although they are used interchangably as in Acts 2:4 when the Apostles were "filled" in Acts 4 were they rebaptized in the Spirit or renewed? The same word however the distinction is clearly seen (at least by me)so is it with forgiveness and remission.

mfblume 09-06-2008 09:36 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Remission and forgiveness are the same Greek word. They are interchangeable, and do not mean different things. If sins are remitted, they are forgiven.

G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Michael The Disciple 09-06-2008 09:44 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

TRFrance 09-06-2008 09:45 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583882)
Dan in our theory and I understand the same Greek word is used so there is no argument from me there. Both are provided by the same Blood-faith. But here is an example 'filled' and baptized with the HG. Although they are used interchangably as in Acts 2:4 when the Apostles were "filled" in Acts 4 were they rebaptized in the Spirit or renewed? The same word however the distinction is clearly seen (at least by me)so is it with forgiveness and remission.

Thank you brother. Well said.
There is a contextual distinction at work here.

mfblume 09-06-2008 09:46 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 583895)
Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

Acts 8:22 KJV Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:15 KJV And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But I still believe baptism is part of salvation. :) Just not for the reasons some give.

SDG 09-06-2008 10:12 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583882)
Dan in our theory and I understand the same Greek word is used so there is no argument from me there. Both are provided by the same Blood-faith. But here is an example 'filled' and baptized with the HG. Although they are used interchangably as in Acts 2:4 when the Apostles were "filled" in Acts 4 were they rebaptized in the Spirit or renewed? The same word however the distinction is clearly seen (at least by me)so is it with forgiveness and remission.

You still miss it sir ... your logic does not doctrine make ...

We are to hold dear to the doctrine of the Apostles ... not your use of KJV words to fit your paradigm ... as they deal w/ the ONE word they used ...
APHESIS to mean absolute pardon as it deals w/ deliverance.

They , not you, used in their writings different words to deal w/ the baptism of the Holy Ghost ... receiving and filling ....

baptizo ... pletho ... etc.

They indeed used distinctive words ... baptism, filled, etc ... when speaking of the HG. Which brings up an entire different debate dealing w/ pneumatology ... and btw, has been discussed among theologians as to whether they mean the same thing ...

But I digress ...

You see ...the Apostles ... (and we claim to be Apostolic) made no contextual differences ... semantical differences ... or otherwise ... when writing about forgiveness/remission/sin washing/pardon.

Therefore ... your arguments dealing w/ this topic are non-Apostolic and extra-biblical .... but rather the doctrine of men.

SDG 09-06-2008 10:20 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 583888)
Remission and forgiveness are the same Greek word. They are interchangeable, and do not mean different things. If sins are remitted, they are forgiven.

G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 583852)
I am three stepper and agree with your claim here about the definitions. Baptism does not forgive sins. Baptism is part of the church's position playing a role in taking one into the body. That is why God gave the vision to Peter to slay and eat unclean animals. Peter never would have baptized the gentiles otherwise, and God was insistent that he do it. So after the got the Holy Ghost, they had to come into the BODY of the Church.

Spirit baptism is God's seal or signature of the covenant contract, and water baptism is the person's seal or signature. Two seals are required for every contract.

Brother Blume ... I like many in Oneness Pentecost respect your mind and aspects of your theology because they are sound and seek to be bible-based.

Men like you, Bernard, Segraves cannot come to any other conclusion but what the word aphesis means and accept it's interchangeable use in scripture...

It's not what we want it to mean.

Once this true variable is accepted in a logic based argument ...

that there is no distinction biblically between forgiveness and remission because the authors did not make one ...

Then you must come to one of the following conclusions:

1. We are fully forgiven at repentance (one step view)
2. One must repent + be baptized = obtaining full forgiveness (Bernard's and Mizpeh's view)

and/or

3. Believe baptism plays a different role in in the New Birth process (Blume's view)

We, of course, disagree on our interpretations of Romans 6 which I believe is the crux of your salvational baptismal view.

Cindy 09-06-2008 10:25 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Daniel, I haven't read the thread nor will I do so. But I will say this. I repented of my sins in faith believing that they are forgiven by the the blood Jesus shed on calvary. Debating and arguing over words is a waste of time.

Michael The Disciple 09-06-2008 10:26 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 583900)
Acts 8:22 KJV Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:15 KJV And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But I still believe baptism is part of salvation. :) Just not for the reasons some give.

Hmmm,

This looks like a case tho where in both cases those involved were at least ones who had already believed and were baptized.

I am looking for the scripture if it exists that puts repentance as the point where a sinners sins are forgiven before water baptism. So far I have not seen it.

Rhoni 09-06-2008 10:28 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Good stuff Dan.

Blessings, Rhoni

SDG 09-06-2008 10:33 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 583930)
Hmmm,

This looks like a case tho where in both cases those involved were at least ones who had already believed and were baptized.

I am looking for the scripture if it exists that puts repentance as the point where a sinners sins are forgiven before water baptism. So far I have not seen it.

Mike, try flipping the page in your bible. Next chapter.

Acts 3:19

19"
Quote:

Therefore (A)repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that (B)times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
Crystal clear from the Preacher who preached at Pentecost ...


Also read Adino's plethora of scripture dealing with scripture you say you can't find in this post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

Quote:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.

Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.

To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”

Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.


Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

SDG 09-06-2008 10:49 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 583931)
Good stuff Dan.

Blessings, Rhoni

Thanx, Rhoni.

Steve Epley 09-06-2008 11:29 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 583921)
You still miss it sir ... your logic does not doctrine make ...

We are to hold dear to the doctrine of the Apostles ... not your use of KJV words to fit your paradigm ... as they deal w/ the ONE word they used ...
APHESIS to mean absolute pardon as it deals w/ deliverance.

They , not you, used in their writings different words to deal w/ the baptism of the Holy Ghost ... receiving and filling ....

baptizo ... pletho ... etc.

They indeed used distinctive words ... baptism, filled, etc ... when speaking of the HG. Which brings up an entire different debate dealing w/ pneumatology ... and btw, has been discussed among theologians as to whether they mean the same thing ...

But I digress ...

You see ...the Apostles ... (and we claim to be Apostolic) made no contextual differences ... semantical differences ... or otherwise ... when writing about forgiveness/remission/sin washing/pardon.

Therefore ... your arguments dealing w/ this topic are non-Apostolic and extra-biblical .... but rather the doctrine of men.

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

mfblume 09-06-2008 11:32 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Dan,

I appreciate your mind and reasoning as well.

My basis for baptism in soteriology is not only Romans 6, but Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3, Acts 10 and Mark 16:16. I do not believe Mark 16:16 is not original scripture, btw.

Anyway, forgiveness is not different than remission.

SDG 09-06-2008 11:34 AM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583952)
Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Sir ... if l handed you a Spanish bible would you read it?

I can't teach your remission is different from forgiveness doctrine using a Spanish bible ... which I do use ... EVEN IF I TRIED TO ....

as for your attempt to dismiss the ability of thousands of bible students who have studied basic Greek terms and the unanimous consensus of theologians ... both expert and amateur ... including David Bernard and Daniel Segraves .... on a basic theological concept/word and it's meaning ...

shows your contempt and/or negligence for interpreting and rightly dividing the Word without bias ... and ultimately TRUTH, IMO.

Simply takes a Greek/English dictionary for this simple exercise, Elder ... not years of linguistic study.

I wonder if I can throw out this desperate barb next time you try to speak authoritatively about the Greek in regards to such words as kouros?

freeatlast 09-06-2008 02:21 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 583895)
Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

Try on 1 John 1:9

Sam 09-06-2008 02:23 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 583861)
You see scripture must harmonize, David ... its basic hermeneutics.
...

David Bernard, considered to be a respected teacher/expert by many Oneness Pentecostals is at least honest enough to admit that remission and forgiveness are the same thing. But, then, in order to retain the "Romish" idea of forgiveness/washing/forgiveness of sin by water baptism, and not go against the "current" UPC (as opposed to the "old time" Apostolic/Pentecostal doctrine of "one-step" salvation) idea that water baptism is part of the salvation/new birth experience, has to move forgiveness out from repentance and tie it in with water baptism.

freeatlast 09-06-2008 02:27 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583952)
Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Next you'll be spouting that Dan can't could'nt order a hot dog in hebrew.

That is one of the lameest quotes you guys throw about.

We are not ordering hot dogs here.

We are looking at the actual definintions of greek and hebrew words as to what they actually meant to the hearers they were penned to.

Without being able to read a lexicon people will be stumbling about forever thinking some little girl is going to hell for wearing pajamas.

good grief...how long will we defend ignorance.

Sam 09-06-2008 02:32 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583952)
Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Elder,
I could not read a Greek New Testament.
I do have a couple of interlinear Greek/English Bibles and can verify how the word aphesis or aphiemi are translated in the King James Bible.

APHESIS (Strong's word 859) and APHIEMI (Strongís word 863) are used as follows in the Greek Scriptures and are usually translated as release, forgiveness, remission, pardon, let go, leave, suffer(permit), dismiss, send away discharge, cancel.

Here is how APHESIS is used in the KJV New Testament:

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the REMISSION of sins.
Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the REMISSION of sins.
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the
REMISSION of their sins,
Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the
baptism of repentance for the REMISSION of sins;
Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
brokenhearted, to preach DELIVERANCE to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to SET AT LIBERTY them that are bruised,
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and REMISSION of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive REMISSION of sins.
Ac 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that
through this man is preached unto you the FORGIVENESS of sins:
Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive
FORGIVENESS of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the
FORGIVENESS of sins:
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no REMISSION.
Heb 10:18 Now where REMISSION of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

to be continued:

Sam 09-06-2008 02:34 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
continued from part one


Here is how APHIEMI is used in the KJV New Testament

Mt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, SUFFER it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he SUFFERED him.
Mt 4:11 Then the devil LEAVETH him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mt 4:20 And they straightway LEFT their nets, and followed him.
Mt 4:22 And they immediately LEFT the ship and their father, and followed him.
Mt 5:24 LEAVE there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mt 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, LET him HAVE thy cloke also.
Mt 6:12 And FORGIVE us our debts, as we FORGIVE our debtors.
Mt 6:14 For if ye FORGIVE men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you:
Mt 6:15 But if ye FORGIVE not men their trespasses, neither will your Father FORGIVE your trespasses.
Mt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, LET me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mt 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever LET her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and LET the dead bury their dead.
Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be FORGIVEN thee.
Mt 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to FORGIVE sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be FORGIVEN unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost SHALL not BE FORGIVEN unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be FORGIVEN him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it SHALL not BE FORGIVEN him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mt 13:30 LET both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mt 13:36 Then Jesus SEND the multitude AWAY, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mt 15:14 LET them ALONE: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not LEAVE the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I FORGIVE him? till seven times?
Mt 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and FORGAVE him the debt.
Mt 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I FORGAVE thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts FORGIVE not every one his brother their trespasses.
Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, SUFFER little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have FORSAKEN all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mt 19:29 And every one that hath FORSAKENhouses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my nameís sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mt 22:22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and LEFT him, and went their way.
Mt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, LEFT his wife unto his brother:
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither SUFFER ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have OMITTED the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to LEAVE the other UNDONE.
Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is LEFT unto you desolate.
Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be LEFT here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Mt 26:44 And he LEFT them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples FORSOOK him, and fled.
Mt 27:49 The rest said, LET BE, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, YIELDED UP the ghost.
Mr 1:18 And straightway they FORSOOK their nets, and followed him.
Mr 1:20 And straightway he called them: and they LEFT their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.
Mr 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever LEFT her, and she ministered unto them.
Mr 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and SUFFERED not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be FORGIVEN thee.
Mr 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can FORGIVE sins but God only?
Mr 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mr 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to FORGIVE sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be FORGIVEN unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be FORGIVEN them.
Mr 4:36 And when they had SENT AWAY the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mr 5:19 Howbeit Jesus SUFFERED him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mr 5:37 And he SUFFERED no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
Mr 7:8 For LAYING ASIDE the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mr 7:12 And ye SUFFER him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mr 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, LET the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the childrenís bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
Mr 8:13 And he LEFT them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
Mr 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, SUFFER the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mr 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have LEFT all, and have followed thee.
Mr 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath LEFT house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospelís,
Mr 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they LET them GO.
Mr 11:16 And would not SUFFER that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mr 11:25 And when ye stand praying, FORGIVE, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may FORGIVE you your trespasses.
Mr 11:26 But if ye do not FORGIVE, neither will your Father which is in heaven FORGIVE your trespasses.
Mr 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they LEFT him, and went their way.
Mr 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a manís brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and LEAVE no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mr 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying LEFT no seed.
Mr 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither LEFT he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mr 12:22 And the seven had her, and LEFT no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mr 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be LEFT one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mr 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who LEFT his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mr 14:6 And Jesus said, LET her ALONE; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
Mr 14:50 And they all FORSOOK him, and fled.
Mr 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, LET ALONE; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mr 15:37 And Jesus CRIED with a loud voice, and GAVE UP the ghost.
Lu 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it LEFT her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
Lu 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they FORSOOK all, and followed him.

to be continued in part 3

Ev. Duane Williams 09-06-2008 02:35 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 583959)
Sir ... if l handed you a Spanish bible would you read it?

I can't teach your remission is different from forgiveness doctrine using a Spanish bible ... which I do use ... EVEN IF I TRIED TO ....

as for your attempt to dismiss the ability of thousands of bible students who have studied basic Greek terms and the unanimous consensus of theologians ... both expert and amateur ... including David Bernard and Daniel Segraves .... on a basic theological concept/word and it's meaning ...

shows your contempt and/or negligence for interpreting and rightly dividing the Word without bias ... and ultimately TRUTH, IMO.

Simply takes a Greek/English dictionary for this simple exercise, Elder ... not years of linguistic study.

I wonder if I can throw out this desperate barb next time you try to speak authoritatively about the Greek in regards to such words as kouros?

Dan,

In many places throughout the Bible both Hebrew and Greek words have more than one meaning which would be nonsensical if the same English word was used for each. For example, the word "know" in KJV has two obviously different meanings. When Adam "knew" Eve, it was obviously different from "knowing" the Truth, no? When God "repented of the evil" He was about to do, you surely don't think He was about to engage in Satan's type of evil, do you? If I say the word "jam", am I talking about jelly, improvised music, paper stuck in a copier, or someone in a difficult situation?

Having said that, I haven't studied this issue out completely, so I must go into Berean mode on this one, but I'll get back to you.

Sam 09-06-2008 02:36 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
continued from part 2

Lu 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are FORGIVEN thee.
Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can FORGIVE sins, but God alone?
Lu 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
Lu 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to FORGIVE sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Lu 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, LET me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brotherís eye.
Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are FORGIVEN for she loved much: but to whom little is FORGIVEN, the same loveth little.
Lu 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are FORGIVEN.
Lu 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that FORGIVETH sins also?
Lu 8:51 And when he came into the house, he SUFFERED no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Lu 9:60 Jesus said unto him, LET the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Lu 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, LEAVING him half dead.
Lu 11:4 And FORGIVE us our sins; for we also FORGIVE every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Lu 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to LEAVE the other UNDONE.
Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be FORGIVEN him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be FORGIVEN.
Lu 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have SUFFERED his house to be broken through.
Lu 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, LET it ALONE this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Lu 13:35 Behold, your house is LEFT unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Lu 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, FORGIVE him.
Lu 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt FORGIVE him.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be LEFT.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, SUFFER little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have LEFT all, and followed thee.
Lu 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath LEFT house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of Godís sake,
Lu 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not LEAVE in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be LEFT one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, FORGIVE them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Joh 4:3 He LEFT Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
Joh 4:28 The woman then LEFT her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
Joh 4:52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever LEFT him.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not LEFT me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and LEAVETH the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and LET him GO.
Joh 11:48 If we LET him thus ALONE, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Joh 12:7 Then said Jesus, LET her ALONE: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Joh 14:18 I will not LEAVE you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I LEAVE with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I LEAVE the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall LEAVE me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, LET these go their way:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye REMIT, they are REMITTED unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be FORGIVEN thee.
Ac 14:17 Nevertheless he LEFT not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, LEAVING the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Ro 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are FORGIVEN, and whose sins are covered.
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and LET not the husband PUT AWAY his wife.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let HIM not PUT her AWAY.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not LEAVE him.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he LEFT nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 6:1 Therefore LEAVING the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be FORGIVEN him.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are FORGIVEN you for his nameís sake.
Re 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast LEFT thy first love.
Re 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not SUFFER their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Ev. Duane Williams 09-06-2008 02:39 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Bro. Jim just inadvertently made my point, I think. Try replacing all those examples with the word "forgiveness" and see what you get!

Sam 09-06-2008 02:44 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams (Post 584088)
Dan,

In many places throughout the Bible both Hebrew and Greek words have more than one meaning which would be nonsensical if the same English word was used for each. For example, the word "know" in KJV has two obviously different meanings. When Adam "knew" Eve, it was obviously different from "knowing" the Truth, no? When God "repented of the evil" He was about to do, you surely don't think He was about to engage in Satan's type of evil, do you? If I say the word "jam", am I talking about jelly, improvised music, paper stuck in a copier, or someone in a difficult situation?

Having said that, I haven't studied this issue out completely, so I must go into Berean mode on this one, but I'll get back to you.

and the Greek word "eis" just like the English word "for" can have more than one meaning.

In Acts 2:38 where it speaks of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ "for" (Greek word "eis") the remission/forgiveness of sins, it could mean either "for" (in order to obtain) forgiveness of sins or it could mean "for" (because of) forgiveness of sins. Greek experts have been quoted here by folks who see it either way and, of course, the experts they quote see it that same way. Even the experts don't agree among themselves. In English we might say that a person is wanted "for" (because of) bank robbery and then go on to tell you to see the local sheriff "for" (in order to obtain) the reword. The word "for" has to be interpreted in the context. If a person believes that sin is forgiven/remitted/washed away at baptism, that person will say that baptism is "for" (in order to obtain) the remission. If a person believes that baptism is forgiven at repentance/confession, that person will say that baptism is "for" (because of) remission. It seems that we all interpret Scripture based on our previously formed beliefs. I guess that's because we're still human.

Apocrypha 09-06-2008 02:45 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams (Post 584090)
Bro. Jim just inadvertently made my point, I think. Try replacing all those examples with the word "forgiveness" and see what you get!

what was your point? i missed it.

Ev. Duane Williams 09-06-2008 02:50 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
My point was that just because it's the same Greek word doesn't mean it has the same definition.

mfblume 09-06-2008 04:10 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams (Post 584090)
Bro. Jim just inadvertently made my point, I think. Try replacing all those examples with the word "forgiveness" and see what you get!

The Greek definition of aphesis simply means freedom or pardon. Changing the English words in the texts only reinforces possible preconceived biases and does not solve the issue. Some people insist that remission is not the same as forgiveness, so replacing them with each other would not accomplish anything. We must got to the Greek definition, alone.

Apocrypha 09-06-2008 04:32 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams (Post 584096)
My point was that just because it's the same Greek word doesn't mean it has the same definition.

oh, in that case lets begin the debate on why the KJV translators used Holiness instead of Sanctification, they are both the same exact greek word... but have different understandings in english.

With the exception of where the word Hagiosune (and i know that off the top of my head) is used, almost every other verse on NT holiness could be reworded as Santification... imagine the legalistic teaching that would demolish in the process :)

holiness is a state

sanctification is a process


thats a much more fun debate than repentence and remittance (welcome to AFF btw, please stay and debate... you may become a convert to grace along the way)

mizpeh 09-06-2008 04:44 PM

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocrypha (Post 584150)
oh, in that case lets begin the debate on why the KJV translators used Holiness instead of Sanctification, they are both the same exact greek word... but have different understandings in english.

With the exception of where the word Hagiosune (and i know that off the top of my head) is used, almost every other verse on NT holiness could be reworded as Santification... imagine the legalistic teaching that would demolish in the process :)

holiness is a state

sanctification is a process


thats a much more fun debate than repentence and remittance (welcome to AFF btw, please stay and debate... you may become a convert to grace along the way)

What's the end result of sanctification?

BTW, that would be an interesting discussion.


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