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-   -   Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=54430)

Nicodemus1968 04-10-2021 02:04 PM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602361)
Why do you insist on reaffirming your ignorance?



And what is the qualitative difference between obedience and submission?



Trinitarians do believe there is only one God, Who is the God of the Old and New Covenants, and His name is Jesus.

What planet are you living on?



Do you see what you've done?

This whole thread up until know you have repeatedly misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity as a belief in Three Gods. But now that you've finally made the effort to do a bit of research and share something official, you've changed your language to more accurately reflect the quoted source, to "three separate persons".

This whole time, in your mind, and in this thread, you have been conflating the words Gods and persons. This is an error and if you at all wish to win a Trinitarian to your theological views, you need to correct it.

Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods. You insisting they do doesn't make it so.



You didn't give an opinion, you bore false witness. You repeatedly claimed Trinitarians believe in three Gods. This isn't so. Now, maybe you're merely parroting someone else's claim, and the lie didn't begin with you. But I have corrected your misunderstanding several times now, and you refuse to acknowledge your error. This means you are now intentionally, willfully propagating a misrepresentation and falsehood, which makes you guilty.

Get out of your own presumptions and take some time to carefully read the creeds and confessions of orthodox Trinitarians before you spout off. You are not helping the Oneness movement or the cause of Christ unless and until you do.

This is nothing to do with my compassion for humanity, except perhaps for yours, so that you might repent and get right with the Lord over your refusal to accurately reflect the beliefs of others.

And as far as your love for Trinitarians goes, you might ask yourself how much anyone can say they love someone who they continually misrepresent and caricaturize. How much loved might a Trinitarian feel knowing you are lying about what they believe?



Finally, just the same as Oneness, Trinitarians "worship one God in the godhead".

One wonders why you persist in this show of ignorance. Is it pride? Are you so insecure in your understanding and worship of God, that any challenge to how you do that from another source that understands and worships God differently than you has to be distorted and/or parodied so as to create straw men out of their beliefs?

It is mindboggling and I wish it would stop. For your sake, for their sakes, but most of all, for the sake of the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.

We could battle in a word game all day. Yet, Iíve spoken to Trinitarians that believe in three separate co equal co eternal gods. Even the Trinitarian on the video I posted called them separate. Then had to clarify his words.

Trinitarians are not like those that believe in one God, the difference is they believe or there doctrine states they believe in 3 divine persons in unity in one godhead. I do not believe in three divine persons that make up the godhead. They believe in God the son, I donít, I believe in the son of God.

Nicodemus1968 04-11-2021 07:55 AM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602361)
And what is the qualitative difference between obedience and submission?

The heart.

1 God 04-11-2021 08:06 AM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602365)
Bodies by nature are not and cannot be omnipresent. Bodies, as dimensional containers of matter, are definitionally topologically limited to time and space.

If that is true, then not every bit of what God consists of is in Jesus, bodily, per Col 2:9? Rather, only a particular portion of God?

Nicodemus1968 04-11-2021 08:09 AM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602353)
Paul spoke in the present tense, "there IS one mediator...the MAN."

The work that Jesus did through the vessel, humanity, or the body will never cease.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


It speaks of man, because that’s exactly what the mediator was, a man. The man was only used as the sacrifice to bring us to God. The body or the flesh, or the humanity is NOT God, furthermore it is not Jesus, The SPIRIT is Jesus.

Matthew 27:51 KJVS
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


The veil was rent and IMO signifying the division that once stood in the old covenant was no longer. The reasons is, that the sacrifice has been completed. The man died, and that man was a body a shell, a vessel to be used to bring the blood of sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the world. The humanity was not God, the spirit that inhabited that body was. I asked a question concerning who is Jesus is the spiritual dimension, well, He is God. He is a spirit why? Because God is a spirit, God is not in body form, he is a spirit. Jesus is the one who spoke all the earth into existence, is he is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, he separated the waters as the children of Israel passed. He rent the mountains before he spoke to Elijah in a still small voice. The only difference is, we have a name that was given to us that is above every name, and that name is Jesus, hidden in the old revealed in the new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602353)
His scars will still be visible at his second coming.

Do you consider those scars blemishes?

Originalist 04-11-2021 09:03 AM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602373)
The work that Jesus did through the vessel, humanity, or the body will never cease.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


It speaks of man, because thatís exactly what the mediator was, a man. The man was only used as the sacrifice to bring us to God. The body or the flesh, or the humanity is NOT God, furthermore it is not Jesus, The SPIRIT is Jesus.

Matthew 27:51 KJVS
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


The veil was rent and IMO signifying the division that once stood in the old covenant was no longer. The reasons is, that the sacrifice has been completed. The man died, and that man was a body a shell, a vessel to be used to bring the blood of sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the world. The humanity was not God, the spirit that inhabited that body was. I asked a question concerning who is Jesus is the spiritual dimension, well, He is God. He is a spirit why? Because God is a spirit, God is not in body form, he is a spirit. Jesus is the one who spoke all the earth into existence, is he is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, he separated the waters as the children of Israel passed. He rent the mountains before he spoke to Elijah in a still small voice. The only difference is, we have a name that was given to us that is above every name, and that name is Jesus, hidden in the old revealed in the new.



Do you consider those scars blemishes?

John saw a man in Revelation. Paul said that currently, all the fullness of the Deity dwells in that man BODILY. You are teaching blasphemy.

TGBTG 04-11-2021 03:14 PM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
[QUOTE=Nicodemus1968;1602351]
Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)
First of, thanks for answering the question.

I will come back to this, I have company today, Ill come back to it tonight or in the morning.

Ok

TGBTG 04-11-2021 03:15 PM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602350)
In Acts 9, the visible "body" of Jesus was a heavenly light brighter than the sun that Paul saw, which blinded him.

What does this have to with Jesus still being the Son of God?

votivesoul 04-11-2021 10:23 PM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602367)
votivesoul,
The Trinity doctrine is complicated to articulate, and hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions out of implications of the premises.

Trinitarians are in practice oneness, or tritheist, depending to who you talk to.

Three persons, three wills, three minds, three powers, and self-existance, but all with the same divine nature, and working in perfect unity. By implication, they basically say that "God" in the NT could refer to one person of the trinity, or to the divine nature as a whole plus the three persons.

Just in my opinion, it is hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions.

No pass here. There is no complication in making certain one accurately reflects the language and ideas one uses when setting forth the basic principles of the doctrine.

There is nothing about making certain one doesn't use the word Gods in the place of Persons that is difficult or challenging to articulate. Whatever conclusions one reaches, one may simply state something to the effect of, "The way I understand the Trinity doctrine, it looks to me like there are three Gods".

That is one thing. It is another to claim, "Trinitarians believe in three Gods".

That is demonstrably false. And anyone who cares about honesty, integrity, accuracy, and good Christian moral ethics, would make certain to not make untrue claims.

Trinitarians routinely used to say that Oneness are "Jesus Only", implying Oneness disavow the Father and the Holy Spirit. Oneness folks, particularly Dr. Bernard, have gone to great lengths to show the error of that statement and implication, and have largely succeeded in striking the "Jesus Only" language and its implications from the discussion.

How about Oneness return the favor and learn to strike the "three Gods" language from the discussion.

Do you want dialogue? An open door to witness? A chance to share what you believe to be true about the Godhead? Well, you aren't ever going to get the chance going into the discussion misrepresenting the opposing view.

It's why Dr. Bernard won that debate. The man took the hardline, low road approach and Dr. Bernard took the diplomatic, high road approach, and his views won out.

All Nicodemus1968 is going to do, or any other Oneness person for that matter, is alienate the people he is hoping to convert. If we cannot correctly and faithfully represent the very basics of what others believe, we will only ever engender their mistrust and anger, and in the process, lose our chance at winning people to the truth.

If you belong to Christ, let me assure you, He demands better than that.

votivesoul 04-11-2021 10:26 PM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602368)
I very much agree. The reality is that trinitarians generally donít understand their doctrine any more than oneness apostolics understand theirs. We want to pretend that itís simple when the very scripture tells us that it is mysterious. And when itís all said and done itís easier to criticize another doctrine, in a virtual echo chamber than it is to dig into the scripture and learn the truth.

I know, because Iíve been guilty of it myself.

Then Apostolics who don't understand their own doctrine well enough ought to be the first ones to shut up when it comes to trying to understand someone else's doctrine.

That's the very foundation of humility and sincerity, as opposed to arrogance and hypocrisy.

votivesoul 04-11-2021 10:29 PM

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602369)
We could battle in a word game all day. Yet, I’ve spoken to Trinitarians that believe in three separate co equal co eternal gods. Even the Trinitarian on the video I posted called them separate. Then had to clarify his words.

You just can't hear yourself. You can't get it out of your head that Trinitarians really mean Gods when they say persons, even though that's not the case. Calling them "separate" only refers to the Persons, or from the Greek, Hypostases, and from the Latin, Personas.

Quote:

Trinitarians are not like those that believe in one God, the difference is they believe or there doctrine states they believe in 3 divine persons in unity in one godhead. I do not believe in three divine persons that make up the godhead. They believe in God the son, I don’t, I believe in the son of God.
Finally, some accuracy. Emphasis on the word "some", however.


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