Apostolic Friends Forum - Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602358)

An omnipresent spirit body that radiates light.

John saw a man. But at the same time, Jesus is a quickening spirit.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602344)

The very essence of the trinitarian belief is that there is God the father, Jesus the son, and Holy Spirit. Three separate co- equal, co- eternal, co- existing Gods. They may claim that Jesus is God yet when you believe in three or two then it’s no longer a belief in God.

Regarding the emboldened text above and especially the underlined:

WRONG

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602349)

As they worship three, they eliminate Jesus form being God. They may say it, (Jesus is God) they can confess it, yet there are two other gods they believe in.

Why do you insist on reaffirming your ignorance?

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I disagree. Submission is the key to salvation.

And what is the qualitative difference between obedience and submission?

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If they believed Jesus is God, then they would believe there is only One God and that is the God of the Old and New Covenant and his name is Jesus. Hid from the Old Covenant, revealed by the Angel in the New.

Trinitarians do believe there is only one God, Who is the God of the Old and New Covenants, and His name is Jesus.

What planet are you living on?

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Definition from Encyclopedia of Britannica
Trinity, in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

Under the Godhead they believe in three separate persons. God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Hence why they baptize in the titles father, son, and Holy Spirit.

Do you see what you've done?

This whole thread up until know you have repeatedly misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity as a belief in Three Gods. But now that you've finally made the effort to do a bit of research and share something official, you've changed your language to more accurately reflect the quoted source, to "three separate persons".

This whole time, in your mind, and in this thread, you have been conflating the words Gods and persons. This is an error and if you at all wish to win a Trinitarian to your theological views, you need to correct it.

Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods. You insisting they do doesn't make it so.

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I gave my opinion to a question concerning the disunity between the two camps of oneness and trinitarian believers. I simply said we do not worship the same God. From there we have had a lively discussion, the fact remains the same, they do not worship the same God I do. Our compassion for humanity can get in the way of truth yet truth it is. I love Trinitarians, my prayer is that there blinded eyes will see the revelation of Jesus Christ. I will help in any way possible with anyone that doesn’t understand or believe in the One True God. Yet, the fact is, I worship One God and His name is Jesus, they worship a triune godhead that is made up of three persons, again, we do not worship the same God. Sorry!

You didn't give an opinion, you bore false witness. You repeatedly claimed Trinitarians believe in three Gods. This isn't so. Now, maybe you're merely parroting someone else's claim, and the lie didn't begin with you. But I have corrected your misunderstanding several times now, and you refuse to acknowledge your error. This means you are now intentionally, willfully propagating a misrepresentation and falsehood, which makes you guilty.

Get out of your own presumptions and take some time to carefully read the creeds and confessions of orthodox Trinitarians before you spout off. You are not helping the Oneness movement or the cause of Christ unless and until you do.

This is nothing to do with my compassion for humanity, except perhaps for yours, so that you might repent and get right with the Lord over your refusal to accurately reflect the beliefs of others.

And as far as your love for Trinitarians goes, you might ask yourself how much anyone can say they love someone who they continually misrepresent and caricaturize. How much loved might a Trinitarian feel knowing you are lying about what they believe?

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If the trinitarians worship three persons in the godhead, and oneness believers worship one God in the godhead, then do we worship the same God?

Finally, just the same as Oneness, Trinitarians "worship one God in the godhead".

One wonders why you persist in this show of ignorance. Is it pride? Are you so insecure in your understanding and worship of God, that any challenge to how you do that from another source that understands and worships God differently than you has to be distorted and/or parodied so as to create straw men out of their beliefs?

It is mindboggling and I wish it would stop. For your sake, for their sakes, but most of all, for the sake of the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602352)

Jesus is a Spirit.

Does not make Him not human.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602353)

Paul spoke in the present tense, "there IS one mediator...the MAN."

His scars will still be visible at his second coming.

In the Greek of 1 Timothy 2:5, the phrase "there is" is not present, but is supplied. In fact, in the entire verse, there is no verbs at all.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/2-5.htm

Εἷς γὰρ Θεός εἷς καὶ μεσίτης Θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς

heis gar theos eis kai mesites theou kai anthropon christos iesous

Structured grammatically, you have:

Adjective - Conjunction - Noun - Adjective - Conjuction - Noun - Noun - Conjunction - Noun - Noun - Noun

Now, this doesn't automatically mean that the English phrase "there is" is wholly unwarranted, but that is something of a different debate. What we cannot say, however, is that Paul wrote in any tense, present or otherwise, that "there is" anything, because there is no such verbiage represented in the Greek text.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by Bro Flame (Post 1602357)

My maternal grandmother was born and raised Roman Catholic, which is about as Trinitarian as one can get.

She was strong on:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Ghost

She wanted to hear nothing about Oneness. That's not what she believed, and that is not what the Catholic church teaches. She insisted that she believed in only one God, but she was also quick to inform you that she believed in the Holy Trinity.

All Trinitarians may not be as staunch as some with their beliefs.

But the basic consensus is that Trinitarians believe the Godhead consists of three co-equal and co-eternal persons. In short, there are three separate deities in the Godhead. That is not what the Bible teaches, nor is that what the Apostles taught, and we're told to remain steadfast in their doctrine.

On the other hand, some self-proclaiming Trinitarians are simply so use to hearing Father, Son, and Spirit that they think just the titles means they're Trinitarian. But if you were to discuss the Godhead with these people they would appear to be Oneness. A brother in my church discussed Oneness with his sister, only to find out she was already a mislabeled Oneness believer. Too bad she went back to her Nazarene preacher and let that woman talk her out of Oneness and back into the Trinity.

Those men and women that have been to Trinitarian seminaries are the most dogmatic on the Trinity. They think Oneness is heresy and that we're legalistic modalists.

Regarding the emboldened and underlined text above. As I have been attempting to show Nicodemus1968, it is mistaken to say that Trinitarians believe in three deities.

To the Trinitarian, there is but one God, one deity in the Godhead, of which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit co-equally share in and enjoy, which co-equally empowers them and co-equally causes them to be eternal. As such, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each God.

A good place to start looking into the realities of what Trinitarians believe (instead of continuing in this presumptuous charade) is the Quicumque Vult, and then look into the Westminster Confession of Faith.

See below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed

http://files1.wts.edu/uploads/pdf/about/WCF_30.pdf

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602358)

An omnipresent spirit body that radiates light.

Bodies by nature are not and cannot be omnipresent. Bodies, as dimensional containers of matter, are definitionally topologically limited to time and space.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Flame (Post 1602357)

My maternal grandmother was born and raised Roman Catholic, which is about as Trinitarian as one can get.

She was strong on:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Ghost

She wanted to hear nothing about Oneness. That's not what she believed, and that is not what the Catholic church teaches. She insisted that she believed in only one God, but she was also quick to inform you that she believed in the Holy Trinity.

All Trinitarians may not be as staunch as some with their beliefs.

But the basic consensus is that Trinitarians believe the Godhead consists of three co-equal and co-eternal persons. In short, there are three separate deities in the Godhead. That is not what the Bible teaches, nor is that what the Apostles taught, and we're told to remain steadfast in their doctrine.

On the other hand, some self-proclaiming Trinitarians are simply so use to hearing Father, Son, and Spirit that they think just the titles means they're Trinitarian. But if you were to discuss the Godhead with these people they would appear to be Oneness. A brother in my church discussed Oneness with his sister, only to find out she was already a mislabeled Oneness believer. Too bad she went back to her Nazarene preacher and let that woman talk her out of Oneness and back into the Trinity.

Those men and women that have been to Trinitarian seminaries are the most dogmatic on the Trinity. They think Oneness is heresy and that we're legalistic modalists.

Is she still alive and did she ever come to place to get saved? I would think that would have been more important than getting her to believe in the Oneness doctrine. I was just curious.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

votivesoul,
The Trinity doctrine is complicated to articulate, and hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions out of implications of the premises.

Trinitarians are in practice oneness, or tritheist, depending to who you talk to.

Three persons, three wills, three minds, three powers, and self-existance, but all with the same divine nature, and working in perfect unity. By implication, they basically say that "God" in the NT could refer to one person of the trinity, or to the divine nature as a whole plus the three persons.

Just in my opinion, it is hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions.

Re: Trinitarians Who Baptize in Jesus Name

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Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602367)

I very much agree. The reality is that trinitarians generally don’t understand their doctrine any more than oneness apostolics understand theirs. We want to pretend that it’s simple when the very scripture tells us that it is mysterious. And when it’s all said and done it’s easier to criticize another doctrine, in a virtual echo chamber than it is to dig into the scripture and learn the truth.

I know, because I’ve been guilty of it myself.