Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602361)

Why do you insist on reaffirming your ignorance?



And what is the qualitative difference between obedience and submission?



Trinitarians do believe there is only one God, Who is the God of the Old and New Covenants, and His name is Jesus.

What planet are you living on?



Do you see what you've done?

This whole thread up until know you have repeatedly misrepresented the doctrine of the Trinity as a belief in Three Gods. But now that you've finally made the effort to do a bit of research and share something official, you've changed your language to more accurately reflect the quoted source, to "three separate persons".

This whole time, in your mind, and in this thread, you have been conflating the words Gods and persons. This is an error and if you at all wish to win a Trinitarian to your theological views, you need to correct it.

Trinitarians do not believe in three Gods. You insisting they do doesn't make it so.



You didn't give an opinion, you bore false witness. You repeatedly claimed Trinitarians believe in three Gods. This isn't so. Now, maybe you're merely parroting someone else's claim, and the lie didn't begin with you. But I have corrected your misunderstanding several times now, and you refuse to acknowledge your error. This means you are now intentionally, willfully propagating a misrepresentation and falsehood, which makes you guilty.

Get out of your own presumptions and take some time to carefully read the creeds and confessions of orthodox Trinitarians before you spout off. You are not helping the Oneness movement or the cause of Christ unless and until you do.

This is nothing to do with my compassion for humanity, except perhaps for yours, so that you might repent and get right with the Lord over your refusal to accurately reflect the beliefs of others.

And as far as your love for Trinitarians goes, you might ask yourself how much anyone can say they love someone who they continually misrepresent and caricaturize. How much loved might a Trinitarian feel knowing you are lying about what they believe?



Finally, just the same as Oneness, Trinitarians "worship one God in the godhead".

One wonders why you persist in this show of ignorance. Is it pride? Are you so insecure in your understanding and worship of God, that any challenge to how you do that from another source that understands and worships God differently than you has to be distorted and/or parodied so as to create straw men out of their beliefs?

It is mindboggling and I wish it would stop. For your sake, for their sakes, but most of all, for the sake of the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602361)

And what is the qualitative difference between obedience and submission?

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602365)

Bodies by nature are not and cannot be omnipresent. Bodies, as dimensional containers of matter, are definitionally topologically limited to time and space.

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602353)

Paul spoke in the present tense, "there IS one mediator...the MAN."

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602353)

His scars will still be visible at his second coming.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602373)

The work that Jesus did through the vessel, humanity, or the body will never cease.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It speaks of man, because that’s exactly what the mediator was, a man. The man was only used as the sacrifice to bring us to God. The body or the flesh, or the humanity is NOT God, furthermore it is not Jesus, The SPIRIT is Jesus.

Matthew 27:51 KJVS
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

The veil was rent and IMO signifying the division that once stood in the old covenant was no longer. The reasons is, that the sacrifice has been completed. The man died, and that man was a body a shell, a vessel to be used to bring the blood of sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the world. The humanity was not God, the spirit that inhabited that body was. I asked a question concerning who is Jesus is the spiritual dimension, well, He is God. He is a spirit why? Because God is a spirit, God is not in body form, he is a spirit. Jesus is the one who spoke all the earth into existence, is he is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, he separated the waters as the children of Israel passed. He rent the mountains before he spoke to Elijah in a still small voice. The only difference is, we have a name that was given to us that is above every name, and that name is Jesus, hidden in the old revealed in the new.



Do you consider those scars blemishes?

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

First of, thanks for answering the question.

I will come back to this, I have company today, Ill come back to it tonight or in the morning.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602350)

In Acts 9, the visible "body" of Jesus was a heavenly light brighter than the sun that Paul saw, which blinded him.

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602367)

votivesoul,
The Trinity doctrine is complicated to articulate, and hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions out of implications of the premises.

Trinitarians are in practice oneness, or tritheist, depending to who you talk to.

Three persons, three wills, three minds, three powers, and self-existance, but all with the same divine nature, and working in perfect unity. By implication, they basically say that "God" in the NT could refer to one person of the trinity, or to the divine nature as a whole plus the three persons.

Just in my opinion, it is hard not to come with "misrepresenting" conclusions.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602368)

I very much agree. The reality is that trinitarians generally don’t understand their doctrine any more than oneness apostolics understand theirs. We want to pretend that it’s simple when the very scripture tells us that it is mysterious. And when it’s all said and done it’s easier to criticize another doctrine, in a virtual echo chamber than it is to dig into the scripture and learn the truth.

I know, because I’ve been guilty of it myself.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602369)

We could battle in a word game all day. Yet, I’ve spoken to Trinitarians that believe in three separate co equal co eternal gods. Even the Trinitarian on the video I posted called them separate. Then had to clarify his words.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602371)

The heart.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602372)

If that is true, then not every bit of what God consists of is in Jesus, bodily, per Col 2:9? Rather, only a particular portion of God?

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602386)

Nonsense.

Nowhere in any verse of the New Covenant Scriptures is anyone ever enjoined to submit to the Gospel, only believe and receive by obeying.

No one can successfully obey the Gospel without submitting themselves to the parameters and requirements of the Good News.

You are, therefore, drawing unnecessary distinctions between concepts that the Apostles and Prophets of Christ never did.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602385)

You just can't hear yourself. You can't get it out of your head that Trinitarians really mean Gods when they say persons, even though that's not the case. Calling them "separate" only refers to the Persons, or from the Greek, Hypostases, and from the Latin, Personas.



Finally, some accuracy. Emphasis on the word "some", however.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602387)

You are misunderstanding Colossians 2:9.

No, not every bit of what God consists of is in Jesus, bodily, in terms of quantity.

Rather, everything that makes God, God, per His Deity (nature and attributes), was in Jesus bodily, per Colossians 2:9, which speaks to quality.

Here is how you can know the difference.

The fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ Jesus. Christ, the hope of glory, is in the Spirit-filled believer. The fulness of the Godhead is in Christ Jesus, and Christ Jesus is in us, and so, the fulness of the Godhead is in us, as the Lord's Body.

Well, if I have that fulness, and it speaks to quantity, then I'm the only one in whom Christ Jesus dwells. But if you have it, and I have it, and all Spirit-filled believers everywhere have it, then it speaks to quality, not quantity.

In the Gospel of John, John the Baptist explained that the Spirit of God was given to Jesus without measure. Jesus explained to His disciples that the Father was IN Him. God is a Spirit.

So, the Spirit of God the Father was given to Jesus without measure, and was in Him, so, even prior to His death, burial, resurrection, the fulness of the Godhead was in Christ Jesus, bodily.

It's a pre and post ascension truth.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602383)

No pass here. There is no complication in making certain one accurately reflects the language and ideas one uses when setting forth the basic principles of the doctrine.

There is nothing about making certain one doesn't use the word Gods in the place of Persons that is difficult or challenging to articulate. Whatever conclusions one reaches, one may simply state something to the effect of, "The way I understand the Trinity doctrine, it looks to me like there are three Gods".

That is one thing. It is another to claim, "Trinitarians believe in three Gods".

That is demonstrably false. And anyone who cares about honesty, integrity, accuracy, and good Christian moral ethics, would make certain to not make untrue claims.

Trinitarians routinely used to say that Oneness are "Jesus Only", implying Oneness disavow the Father and the Holy Spirit. Oneness folks, particularly Dr. Bernard, have gone to great lengths to show the error of that statement and implication, and have largely succeeded in striking the "Jesus Only" language and its implications from the discussion.

How about Oneness return the favor and learn to strike the "three Gods" language from the discussion.

Do you want dialogue? An open door to witness? A chance to share what you believe to be true about the Godhead? Well, you aren't ever going to get the chance going into the discussion misrepresenting the opposing view.

It's why Dr. Bernard won that debate. The man took the hardline, low road approach and Dr. Bernard took the diplomatic, high road approach, and his views won out.

All Nicodemus1968 is going to do, or any other Oneness person for that matter, is alienate the people he is hoping to convert. If we cannot correctly and faithfully represent the very basics of what others believe, we will only ever engender their mistrust and anger, and in the process, lose our chance at winning people to the truth.

If you belong to Christ, let me assure you, He demands better than that.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

From your response, you said the son of God is not God. You see the son as just a human body. I think I now understand why you keep saying “the humanity”

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

I see the Son of God as God himself in human form not just a body. Here are a few reasons:

Looking at the time when “the humanity” was on earth:
Jn 10
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Notice that on multiple occasions, the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he called himself the Son of God. Notice in John 10:33 the Jews said Jesus should not make himself equal to God since he is just a man. The Jews recognized what Son of God equates to God.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

Continuing, per your response, you said the humanity was done with after his ascension. So now, let’s look at the time after “the humanity” was supposedly done with:

1 Jn 5
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
The apostle John said to be born of God (born again), one must believe that Jesus is (not was) the Son of God. Whoever believes this overcomes the world. The apostle is still referring to Jesus as the Son of God years after his ascension.

1 Thess1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Apostle Paul is telling the Thessalonians to expect the Son back from heaven years after his ascension. This definitely shows (at least to me) that the Son was in heaven during the times of the Thessalonians.

I have shown you that Jesus called himself the Son of God while on earth and that equated to being God.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

Now, let’s look at what Jesus called himself years after his ascension while in heaven.

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Notice Jesus call himself the Son of God tears after “the humanity” supposedly was done with. There are many other scriptures that show Jesus is CURRENTLY the Son of God, but these should suffice.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

On to your question-
You asked “in heaven right now, what is God in the form of and what is Jesus in the form of?”
I believe 1 cor 15 thoroughly answers this question. It’s a long scripture so I’ll just emphasize some verses in there.
1 cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So what form is Jesus in right now? The spiritual (incorruptible) body with which he was raised from the dead. Paul said we too shall have the same body at the resurrection.

Apostle John said the same thing:
1 Jn 1:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We will have the same spiritual body that Jesus has.

What form is God in? Jesus is God (at least to me), so God exists SIMULTANEOUSLY as the incorporeal Spirit he has always been AND as the resurrected Christ.

Originally Posted by TGBTG (Post 1602346)

Your other question- “is there humanity in heaven?”
Like I showed you from 1 cor 15- Jesus has a spiritual body in heaven right now (not our adamic, corrupt flesh). And we too will receive the same spiritual body at the resurrection. So there will be plenty “humanity” in heaven at some point..lol

2 cor 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602406)

I believe in the son of God, I believe he was born of a women yet created not by the blood of Joseph yet that of God. I believe he walked on this earth, ate food, slept, felt pain, felt rejection, was tempted in all manner as we are. If I made you feel that the body of Jesus was just another human being, then forgive me. I just don’t believe the natural, physical, humanity however you want to say it, is now the form of God. I do not believe Jesus Christ is a human being up in heaven, I believe Jesus Christ is God of the Old Covenant therefore he is a spirit.

Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

Now, when this verse mentions “Son” what is it referring to? It’s referring to the earthly ministry of Jesus as he physically walked on this earth. The son isn’t a separate god, or a divine (godlike) person in some trinitarian view. Its God himself in human form.



I totally agree.

Pharisees deal with what a lot of people deal with today, all they see is the physical and never can comprehend the spiritual. Where me and you differ is I believe the spirit that manifest in the humanity was God, however, the humanity, the flesh is not God.



Is this talking about the humanity, the body of Jesus Christ coming out of Heaven, or is it referring to his ministry?



Again, are we referring to the physical, or are we reading about the ministry, ie, the spiritual? Is there a human body in heaven with scars on his back, feet, hands, and side? Remember, the ministry of Jesus was one that disrupted their traditions, he came with authority, he came with love, he overturned their tables, and brought victory not over Rome, yet over sin. There is a spiritual law that Christ provided to us through his ministry. He talked about demons walking through dry places, we know realize that demons can cause sickness, deaf and dumbness, how? Because he allowed us to see past the natural and into the spiritual.




Paul was explaining the natural to the spiritual, yet he mentions we were sown in corruption and we raised in incorruption. Jesus Christ was not that way in any of the examples.

1 Corinthians 15:50 KJVS
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

In this verse Paul explains, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Humanities physical nature will not be that spiritual body that we will have on the other side.



That doesn’t state that Jesus is a human being in heaven.

How will you know who Jesus is in that Heavenly realm?

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1602384)

Then Apostolics who don't understand their own doctrine well enough ought to be the first ones to shut up when it comes to trying to understand someone else's doctrine.

That's the very foundation of humility and sincerity, as opposed to arrogance and hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602407)

THe disciples preached "Jesus of NAZARETH" in Acts.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602410)

Absolutely agree with you.

I fully agree and understand that God manifested himself in flesh. Why, because he is a spirit, and a spirit....

Luke 24:39 KJVS
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So, therefore he he robed himself in humanity and took on the form of a servant to fulfill his will and plan that he had from the foundation of the earth.

Revelation 13:8 KJVS
[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Even Abraham had and understanding of the plan of the Lord,

Genesis 22:8 KJVS
[8]And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Humanity of Christ was born of a woman yet the blood the life, was that of God. The spirit that indwelled that temple was that, that spoke this world into existence. He came with a purpose, and that was to set them at liberty that were bound in sin, he came to give his followers authority, and power in the spirit. He came to give us and understanding of the spirit and to give a spirit that will love souls and hate sin. The prophets in the old covenant haven’t received what we have received in Acts 2:38, neither have the angels.

Anyways, we understand you cannot kill a spirit, we understand a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones.

Matthew 27:46 KJVS
[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The spirit left the temple as it died.

Three days later it was raised to life again. Jesus said this was going to happen

John 2:19 KJVS
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

What was he going to raise up? The body that he was in dwelling in. The spirit didn’t die, but the humanity did. The humanity was never God, and will never be God. I understand we have all these paintings that depict Jesus with long flowing hair, and he is standing in the clouds with scars on his hands, feet, and side. Yet, that the corrupt imagination of man. Jesus is a Spirit, because he is God, its not Jesus the human, and then God the father, the spirit being. He is One, not 3 in one (confusion) neither is it 2 in one ( also confusion).

Romans 1:23 KJVS
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1602412)

Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.


So the Son.... MADE THE WORLDS during his earthly ministry?

If he made the worlds wouldnt he have to be BEFORE THE WORLDS?

Originally Posted by Bro Flame (Post 1602414)

A brother in our church was talking about the below verse a couple of services ago.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Trinitarians hold to the "let us" part, and say that this is the first Biblical reference to a three-fold Godhead.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1602412)

Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.


So the Son.... MADE THE WORLDS during his earthly ministry?

If he made the worlds wouldnt he have to be BEFORE THE WORLDS?

Originally Posted by Originalist (Post 1602411)

You might want to get with Stephen on this. He seems to have been mistaken as to who he saw....


Acts 7:56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Originally Posted by Bro Flame (Post 1602414)

A brother in our church was talking about the below verse a couple of services ago.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Trinitarians hold to the "let us" part, and say that this is the first Biblical reference to a three-fold Godhead.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602417)

So are you of the position that Jesus the son was sitting on the right side of God?

This is off topic, but is there any power in the name of god?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602416)

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 1602420)

I believe and teach Jesus is God. Do you have a problem with the 3 times Paul says God created all things by his Son?

Hebrews 1:1-2 KJVS
[1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

Col. 1:16

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Originally Posted by Bro Flame (Post 1602414)

A brother in our church was talking about the below verse a couple of services ago.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Trinitarians hold to the "let us" part, and say that this is the first Biblical reference to a three-fold Godhead.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602422)

I think the "us" is God and the man Christ Jesus who was slain before the foundation of the world per Rev 13:8. Adam was made in Jesus' image per Romans 5:14.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602423)

So we bear the image of God and the man Christ Jesus?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1602389)

So are those “persons” individual,and god like?

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1602393)

Thanks. However, we do not have the fullness of the Godhead in us. it says 'fullness of God" regarding us. Jesus specifically has ALL the fulness of the Godhead, bodily. This does not say "all the fullness of the attributes of God". We read the latter into it for some reason. Also, Jesus had the Spirit without measure while on earth, which implies we have it with measure.

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602394)

Good points. You are right. Sorry I didn’t mean to upset you.

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1602408)

I agree with you on this. I also believe that is where the value of this forum comes into play. In any organization (or almost any) once the bylaws (or doctrine in this case) is established by the leadership, it becomes a matter of allegiance to the organization and the leadership. I think this may be why the church was supposed to have a plurality of elders, instead of a single, central leader, also known as a pastor. We become a sound bite Christian that parrots the words of the pastor, instead of digging out our own well.

I have attended for years, a Bible study that is a sort of round table, small group where everyone is encouraged to give an answer, not on every question, but at least be involved. In this type of study it is remarkable how many high-value answers that are given. Sometimes these answers come from the quietest and most introverted people. It helps me to understand the importance of the scripture where Paul instructs us on having church . . .

1Corinthians 14

[29] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
[30] If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

We don’t typically do this in our Apostolic churches.

Maybe we should.

I’m sorry, of course we should. It’s the Apostolic way.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame (Post 1602414)

A brother in our church was talking about the below verse a couple of services ago.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Trinitarians hold to the "let us" part, and say that this is the first Biblical reference to a three-fold Godhead.

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1602415)

Not all Trinitarian scholars hold that position.