Apostolic Friends Forum - Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

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Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Original sin[1] is, according to a doctrine in Christian theology, humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man.[2] Like other theological terms, the terms "original sin" and "ancestral sin" are not found in either the Old or the New Testament, though the sinfulness of humans is frequently addressed, but the doctrine that the terms express is claimed to be based on passages in the New Testament written by Paul the Apostle, such as Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, as well as in the Old Testament psalms by King David in Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3.

In the history of Christianity this condition has been characterized in many ways ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature," to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt by all humans through collective guilt.

Found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

According to this article, original sin is something we are all born with. Do you believe that all are born with sin, or are all born with the nature to sin? What do you say on this subject?

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 489338)

Both the Calvinists and Arminians hold to man being born with a sinful nature. I think the following questions are pertinent:

Is it possible for a child to be born and live his life without sin?

Are we born spiritually alive and then subsequently die spiritually only after we first sin?

Are we born spiritually dead? If so, what sin is imputed to us which causes the separation from God?

IMO, it is undeniable that the consequences of Adam's sin are on our shoulders. We bear the consequent results of what Adam did. We were not in the garden, yet we live under the curse of death brought about by Adam's transgression.

If a child is born and never sins.... he will still die. A newborn abandoned in the middle of the woods will die. He has not personally committed any sin. Why does he die?

If it is blatantly apparent that the 'sinless' newborn will physically die, then it is logical to recognize he is also born into spiritual death. What sin has the child committed to merit such a condition? None.

There, therefore, must be an imputation of sin foreign to him. God must somehow reckon something to him he has not done. He is innocent of personal sin, but he is still condemned and needs justification. But, justification from what?

This 'original sin' somehow imputed to mankind needs to be eradicated from our lives in the eyes of God. The 'sinful nature' of man needs to be somehow overlooked by God. It needs to be taken out of the equation in order for right relationship with God to be reestablished. Our justification requires the issue of 'Adam's sin' to be dealt with by God.

I've made the following statement in another thread:

It is not the mere justification of our sinful deeds which gives us right fellowship with God. It is the justification of our sinful nature. We are justified, not merely of our the sinful deeds, but of our sinful nature. Even if a person could achieve and maintain a lifestyle without sinful deeds to confess, he is still a sinner before God BY NATURE. Since the sinful nature is never eradicated during our Christian journey, we are perpetually in need of God to reckon to us a righteousness up and above any righteous behavior we can perform.

The believer who is perpetually reckoned righteous by God is at the same time a sinner by nature.

"Simul Justus Et Peccator" - At the same time righteous and a sinner.

Salvation deals with far more than the remission of our individual transgressions before God. It deals with the remission of all sin committed by us and all sin imputed to us. We are justified of all this sin because it was all imputed to Christ. Christ bore our transgressions. He took away the sins of the world. Though, we live in an actual condition of sinfulness before God, the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to us, our sin (both personal and original) having been reckoned to him. We who are sinners by act and by nature are justified by faith in Christ.

Just as God reckons to man the foreign sin of Adam, God now reckons to man the foreign righteousness of Christ through faith.

God willing, this may greatly help some to better understand the doctrine of justification.

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino (Post 489394)

Both the Calvinists and Arminians hold to man being born with a sinful nature. I think the following questions are pertinent:

Is it possible for a child to be born and live his life without sin?

Are we born spiritually alive and then subsequently die spiritually only after we first sin?

Are we born spiritually dead? If so, what sin is imputed to us which causes the separation from God?

It is not the mere justification of our sinful deeds which gives us right fellowship with God. It is the justification of our sinful nature. We are justified, not merely of our the sinful deeds, but of our sinful nature. Even if a person could achieve and maintain a lifestyle without sinful deeds to confess, he is still a sinner before God BY NATURE. Since the sinful nature is never eradicated during our Christian journey, we are perpetually in need of God to reckon to us a righteousness up and above any righteous behavior we can perform.

The believer who is perpetually reckoned righteous by God is at the same time a sinner by nature.

"Simul Justus Et Peccator" - At the same time righteous and a sinner.

Salvation deals with far more than the remission of our individual transgressions before God. It deals with the remission of all sin committed by us and all sin imputed to us. We are justified of all this sin because it was all imputed to Christ. Christ bore our transgressions. He took away the sins of the world. Though, we live in an actual condition of sinfulness before God, the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to us, our sin (both personal and original) having been reckoned to him. We who are sinners by act and by nature are justified by faith in Christ.

God willing, this may greatly help some to better understand the doctrine of justification.

I don't know why you would reach the conclusion that physical death is a result of spiritual death.

Are those who are saved spiritually dead, or do they not die a physical death?

In the Garden there was a tree of life, it would seem that physical death was warded of by this fountain of youth like tree. What other purpose would it serve?

The fruit of the tree seems to work regardless of the sin nature.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710 (Post 489400)

I don't know why you would reach the conclusion that physical death is a result of spiritual death.

Never said it was. Both are results of Adam's transgression. Why do you believe we would inherit one without the other?

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino (Post 489402)

Never said it was. Both are results of Adam's transgression. Why do you believe we would inherit one without the other?

Physical death seems to be the logical conclusion if one does not eat from the tree of life. So physical death, apart from that tree, seems to be inherent before the fall. If not why was the tree there to begin with?

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Why do you feel the tree of life had nothing to do with spiritual death as well? Is the tree, either actual or metaphorical, a source of both physical and spiritual life?

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino (Post 489408)

Why do you feel the tree of life had nothing to do with spiritual death as well? Is the tree, either actual or metaphorical, a source of both physical and spiritual life?

I believe it was an actual tree...

Genesis 3:24
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Genesis 2:9
And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I don't know if it has spiritual implications but the physical seems apparent.

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino (Post 489394)

Both the Calvinists and Arminians hold to man being born with a sinful nature. I think the following questions are pertinent:

Is it possible for a child to be born and live his life without sin?

Are we born spiritually alive and then subsequently die spiritually only after we first sin?

Are we born spiritually dead? If so, what sin is imputed to us which causes the separation from God?

IMO, it is undeniable that the consequences of Adam's sin are on our shoulders. We bear the consequent results of what Adam did. We were not in the garden, yet we live under the curse of death brought about by Adam's transgression.

If a child is born and never sins.... he will still die. A newborn abandoned in the middle of the woods will die. He has not personally committed any sin. Why does he die?

If it is blatantly apparent that the 'sinless' newborn will physically die, then it is logical to recognize he is also born into spiritual death. What sin has the child committed to merit such a condition? None.

There, therefore, must be an imputation of sin foreign to him. God must somehow reckon something to him he has not done. He is innocent of personal sin, but he is still condemned and needs justification. But, justification from what?

This 'original sin' somehow imputed to mankind needs to be eradicated from our lives in the eyes of God. The 'sinful nature' of man needs to be somehow overlooked by God. It needs to be taken out of the equation in order for right relationship with God to be reestablished. Our justification requires the issue of 'Adam's sin' to be dealt with by God.

I've made the following statement in another thread:

It is not the mere justification of our sinful deeds which gives us right fellowship with God. It is the justification of our sinful nature. We are justified, not merely of our the sinful deeds, but of our sinful nature. Even if a person could achieve and maintain a lifestyle without sinful deeds to confess, he is still a sinner before God BY NATURE. Since the sinful nature is never eradicated during our Christian journey, we are perpetually in need of God to reckon to us a righteousness up and above any righteous behavior we can perform.

The believer who is perpetually reckoned righteous by God is at the same time a sinner by nature.

"Simul Justus Et Peccator" - At the same time righteous and a sinner.

Yes, I agree. We are repenting for sins we committed and finding justification not for them only, but also for the sin imputed to us through Adam, when we accept the work of the cross.

I find it interesting that the imputation or the cross is not limited to our acceptance of the cross, much like the imputation of sin was not just by our commission.

For example; though a baby has imputed sin, he through his innocence also receives imputed justification.

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 489417)

For example; though a baby has imputed sin, he through his innocence also receives imputed justification.

Ahh.... the possibility of double imputation.....

These waters be deep :boat

Re: Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino (Post 489394)

Both the Calvinists and Arminians hold to man being born with a sinful nature. I think the following questions are pertinent:

Is it possible for a child to be born and live his life without sin?

Are we born spiritually alive and then subsequently die spiritually only after we first sin?

Are we born spiritually dead? If so, what sin is imputed to us which causes the separation from God?

It is not the mere justification of our sinful deeds which gives us right fellowship with God. It is the justification of our sinful nature. We are justified, not merely of our the sinful deeds, but of our sinful nature. Even if a person could achieve and maintain a lifestyle without sinful deeds to confess, he is still a sinner before God BY NATURE. Since the sinful nature is never eradicated during our Christian journey, we are perpetually in need of God to reckon to us a righteousness up and above any righteous behavior we can perform.

The believer who is perpetually reckoned righteous by God is at the same time a sinner by nature.

"Simul Justus Et Peccator" - At the same time righteous and a sinner.

Adino shockingly I agree with most said here.