Apostolic Friends Forum - Genesis,creation and formation

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Genesis,creation and formation

The difference between creation in the first chapter and formation in the second chapter.The creation of God In Gen.1:1-6.So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.(It don't say how many he created. I believe he created male and female of each race)

2:7-25 God formed Adam(formed means to take something already created and form it. This is why it says he formed Adam, it don't say he created him. So It is very clear this is two different events.)

We find here ,the creation of man could eat everything but forming. Adam could not.So again we find this is two different events)

1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

1:24-25.God created the beasts before the man and in 2;19 he formed the beasts after he formed Adam.(So here again we find these are two different events)

(So again we find these are not the same events)In 2;4-5 the man didn't till the ground and 3:19 and2:15 then when he formed Adam, he did till the ground.

6:2 The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.(So here we see two different groups of people,the sons of man and the Sons of God.This is where Cain got his wife from ,the sons of man.)

Who were all these great nations in the garden of Eden? Ezk. 031:006All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations

031:007Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.

Who was thes trees in the garden of Eden?031:008The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.

These were not natural trees.Natural trees can't envie 031:009I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Trees don't have hearts.031:010Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;

The bottom line is, who is this cedar tree that Pharaoh is like? 031:002Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness? 031:003Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches,

Who is all the nations that shook at his fall? 031:016I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Who ever heard of a natural tree having fruit of knoweldge of good and evil?Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Who ever seen a talking serpent?Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

It seems we disagree on so much, and my response here is not a disappointment to that note. lol. But I respect your views.

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Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 74039)

There are differences that do not indicate two different creations. I will explain as we continue.

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2:7-25 God formed Adam(formed means to take something already created and form it. This is why it says he formed Adam, it don't say he created him. So It is very clear this is two different events.)

Part of Adam was formed, part was not. Because his body was made from earth, he was formed as per his body. But Adam was still created.

Psalm 104 lists the days of creation in precisely the same order as Genesis 1 and refers to LIFE as being "created", but the earth "renewed".

Psa 104:30 KJV Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

That shows the difference between what is formed and created.

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We find here ,the creation of man could eat everything but forming. Adam could not.So again we find this is two different events)

I cannot follow your statement here. "could eat everything but forming"? Please clarify.

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1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

This does not prove Adam was not the man created in Genesis 1. We do not read that animals had the sort of comprisal that would allow them to KNOW GOOD AND EVIL, anyway. Adam did. Animals cannot be affected by anything that affects knowledge since they have not that capacity to begin with.

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1:24-25.God created the beasts before the man and in 2;19 he formed the beasts after he formed Adam.(So here again we find these are two different events)

Incorrect. Since the emphasis of Genesis 1 is the actual creation, and the emphasis of chapter 2 is Adam and a stage being set for the downfall of mankind, we are going to read events out of chronology in Genesis 2. Gen 2 is a manner of writing that refers to creation of animals just as a sort of way of saying, "And Adam named the animals, which by the way were created from the dust of the ground." It is not saying God created them after Adam but rather explains as a side note their creation when mentioning them. This is done because the whole point of Adam naming them was to FIND A HELP METE. And the SOURCE and ORIGIN of the animals was vastly different than the woman. That explains the difference between how Eve was acceptable and the animals were not. That is why their creation form the ground was mentioned. It was not to show WHEN they were created, but FROM WHAT ORIGIN they were created. The animals came from the ground but Eve came FROM ADAM'S BODY.

This is proved by understanding the manner in which early Semitic writers wrote. I will now prove to you that Genesis 2 was not saying the animals were created AFTER Adam, but rather in the sixth day of Genesis 1 using the style of writing that these early writers used that is proved by other examples of early Semitic writing.

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1Ki 7:13 KJV And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.

This above verse is mentioned in the context where the previous chapter 6 says the temple was FINISHED.

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1Ki 6:9 KJV So he built the house, and finished it; and covered the house with beams and boards of cedar.

1Ki 6:14 KJV So Solomon built the house, and finished it.

1Ki 6:37-38 KJV In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid, in the month Zif: (38) And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.

We even read of the Palace of Solomon too 13 years to build. And after we read of the temple being COMPLETED, we read, "And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram from Tyre...and he came to king Solomon, and did all his work; and made the two pillars." If we read that in a chronological manner, we would have to conclude that Solomon did not even get the men expert to build the temple to come to work UNTIL AFTER THE TEMPLE OF WAS BUILT! But it is not saying that. But that is how you read Genesis 2. It is actually the equivalent of our style of writing, "Hiram, whom Solomon fetched from Tyre, made the vessels..."

This is exactly the same case in the same Bible with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

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(So again we find these are not the same events)In 2;4-5 the man didn't till the ground and 3:19 and2:15 then when he formed Adam, he did till the ground.

It just says there was no man to till the ground in 2:4-5. That did not mean man was created to do so. It shows and stresses that GOD DID THE WORK and not man. And after sin, man had to work.

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6:2 The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.(So here we see two different groups of people,the sons of man and the Sons of God.This is where Cain got his wife from ,the sons of man.)

Another error in reading. The sons of God were Seth's descendants. They were servants of God. Since the MEN choose to marry women, and not women making the initial step to choose to marry men, and since godly men are not to marry ungodly women, we read that the SONS OF GOD (males from Seth's line) married "daughters of men" (sinner women from Cain's line).

Sounds like we are geting ready to hear someone explain SERPENT SEED doctrine....

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Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 74041)

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Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 75123)

It seems we disagree on so much, and my response here is not a disappointment to that note. lol. But I respect your views.

There are differences that do not indicate two different creations. I will explain as we continue.

Joelel's reply,There are not two different creations listed in Gen..There is a creation in first chapter and a formation in second chapter.The word formation means to take something all ready created and form it,(did something different to it to make it different).In the case with Adam God took him from the natural creation and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul.As I said before God created more then two people in chapter one but he only took the one man Adam and formed him,this is where the sons of God came from.The ones who had the breath of life were the sons of God.The word breath means (Spirit) in the script.The people (Sons of God) In the garden had spirtual life (spitual bodies untill they got cast out of the garden.The Sons of man out side the garden didn't have spitual bodies.
There was an other creation not listed in Gen. because when God created man and woman in the first chapter he told them to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.The word replenish means to replace something that all ready was.

Part of Adam was formed, part was not. Because his body was made from earth, he was formed as per his body. But Adam was still created.

Joelels reply,All of Adam was created and then formed.

Psalm 104 lists the days of creation in precisely the same order as Genesis 1 and refers to LIFE as being "created", but the earth "renewed".

[B]Joelel reply,Man replenished the earth also.[/B]

Psa 104:30 KJV Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

[B]Joelels reply,renewest the face of the earth,Face means things on the earth.[/B]

That shows the difference between what is formed and created.

I cannot follow your statement here. "could eat everything but forming"? Please clarify.

Joel reply,Sorry I put a comma. It should say.We find here ,the creation of man could eat everything but forming Adam could not.So again we find this is two different events)1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

This does not prove Adam was not the man created in Genesis 1. We do not read that animals had the sort of comprisal that would allow them to KNOW GOOD AND EVIL, anyway. Adam did. Animals cannot be affected by anything that affects knowledge since they have not that capacity to begin with.

[B]Joelels reply,I didn;t say Adam was not created.He was created in chapter one them formed in chapter two.[/B]

Incorrect. Since the emphasis of Genesis 1 is the actual creation, and the emphasis of chapter 2 is Adam and a stage being set for the downfall of mankind, we are going to read events out of chronology in Genesis 2. Gen 2 is a manner of writing that refers to creation of animals just as a sort of way of saying, "And Adam named the animals, which by the way were created from the dust of the ground." It is not saying God created them after Adam but rather explains as a side note their creation when mentioning them. This is done because the whole point of Adam naming them was to FIND A HELP METE. And the SOURCE and ORIGIN of the animals was vastly different than the woman. That explains the difference between how Eve was acceptable and the animals were not. That is why their creation form the ground was mentioned. It was not to show WHEN they were created, but FROM WHAT ORIGIN they were created. The animals came from the ground but Eve came FROM ADAM'S BODY.

[B]Joelels reply,The creation started in chapter one and went to chapter two and verse [4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.Then in 2: 7 started the formation.Also everything God brought to Adam in the garden was brought to him from the creation and in some way formed.[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[19] And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.I believe the ground means God took them from the natural creation.Ground meaning natural creation.Like te trees in the garden were not natural trees as we know a tree,they grew out of the ground(natural creation).[/B]

This is proved by understanding the manner in which early Semitic writers wrote. I will now prove to you that Genesis 2 was not saying the animals were created AFTER Adam, but rather in the sixth day of Genesis 1 using the style of writing that these early writers used that is proved by other examples of early Semitic writing.

[B]Joelels reply,Right the animals were created before Adam but Adam was formed and placed in the garden first and then the amimals.[/B]

This above verse is mentioned in the context where the previous chapter 6 says the temple was FINISHED.

We even read of the Palace of Solomon too 13 years to build. And after we read of the temple being COMPLETED, we read, "And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram from Tyre...and he came to king Solomon, and did all his work; and made the two pillars." If we read that in a chronological manner, we would have to conclude that Solomon did not even get the men expert to build the temple to come to work UNTIL AFTER THE TEMPLE OF WAS BUILT! But it is not saying that. But that is how you read Genesis 2. It is actually the equivalent of our style of writing, "Hiram, whom Solomon fetched from Tyre, made the vessels..."

This is exactly the same case in the same Bible with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

[B]Joelels reply,Gen.2:4 Is the end of the creation an then starts the formation.[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.[/B]

It just says there was no man to till the ground in 2:4-5. That did not mean man was created to do so. It shows and stresses that GOD DID THE WORK and not man. And after sin, man had to work.

Joelels reply,This was before he created anything.[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Another error in reading. The sons of God were Seth's descendants. They were servants of God. Since the MEN choose to marry women, and not women making the initial step to choose to marry men, and since godly men are not to marry ungodly women, we read that the SONS OF GOD (males from Seth's line) married "daughters of men" (sinner women from Cain's line).

[B]Joelels reply,Please give scripture that says the Sons of God were Seth's descendants or started with Seth ? If they were Sath's then Seth would have to be a Son of God.There has to be a starting place for the difference in the sons of God and the Sons of Man and it started in the Garden when God breathed the breath (Spirit) of life (spitual life in Adam).Everyone else God created didn't have spitual life and were sons of men.Same as today,everyone God breathes into us his Spirit we become Sons of God and everyone he don't is sons of man.This is the saved and the unsaved.Eve was the mother of all living,only those who were their off spring.[/B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 75124)

Sounds like we are geting ready to hear someone explain SERPENT SEED doctrine....

I'm ready to refute that too with the word of truth.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
Gen 1:27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

The hebrew word for man is ADAM. Notice that God did not just create, but God MADE man and woman.

Now notice chapter 5 Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.

God created Adam....man, he MADE him in the likeness of God

Chapter 2 is simply the 6th day in detail

I just finished a Bible Course in College. We spent almost 2 weeks in Genesis 1. It's not 2 different creations. It is the same story with the second being more detailed.

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Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 75540)

Hi Prax,So what are you saying ? Man lookes like God ? If so I don't agree.Man was made in the image of God in his likeness because the one man and woman he created or made or formed spirit like himself.It don't say how many he created either of other men women.Yes Adam was the first he created but not the only ones.He called their names Adam,not just man.He also created other sons of man as well as forming sons of God.

Where did you find man meant Adam ? Gen.5:[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. The name "ADAM" (aw-dawm') in Hebrew means a "ruddy human being" (Strong's O.T. #120). It is derived from Strong's O.T. #119 - ADAM (aw-dam'), which means "to show blood (in the face), i.e. flush or turn rosy.

Chapter 2 is not the sixth day in detail.Chapter one is the creation and chapter two is the formation.Formation in the Hebrew means to take something all ready created and form it.So God took Adam and animals from the natural creation and formed them and placed it in the garden.Also he created the trees in the third day not the sixth.

God said let US make man in OUR image.Who is this US and OUR.US and OUR is more then one.

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Originally Posted by tv1a (Post 75574)

I just finished a Bible Course in College. We spent almost 2 weeks in Genesis 1. It's not 2 different creations. It is the same story with the second being more detailed.

Yes I know that's what man teaches but not God's word.