Any willing to answer my question?
 

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

It's the old "Don't do as I do. Do as I say" mentality.

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

There is no validity. Pastors say that they are accountable to their elders, but in reality, pastors don't have pastors. The "elders" are there only for advice.
BUT, when a saint doesn't follow his pastors "advice," said person is out of God's will and in rebellion.

All that aside, I believe in the atonomy ( sp ) of the church. I do not believe that presbyters or general supers serve for much more than organizational duties, administrative, etc.

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

No...get out while u can

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

The question was not addressed to me so I will not add to the discussion, except to say that I too would love to read a reasoned response.

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

That is freaky! If at all possible, I would suggest people not sit in churches if this type of junk is propagated. That nasty evil spirit could get ahold of you too!

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.:thumbsup

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

This is what I was trying to convey. With he exception of the authority. Pastors don't own the saints. Ministers are called to be servants. ( so ) Why are saints serving pastors?

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

Bro. Epley,


If the local church in question belongs to an organization, the pastor is subject to a higher office. As a matter of fact, pastors being subjected to a higher office is scriptural. Please allow me to provide scripture. We read in Galatians 1:6, Paul is addressing the church of Galatia for entertaining false teachings.

Take notice, Paul doesn't address the pastors alone, but he addresses the pastors and congregants as a whole as "you foolish Galatians." This leads me to believe that:

1) Pastors and congregants can have truth, and can begin entertaining unscriptural teachings and be classified as fools.

2) If these Galatia pastors hadn't detoured to fulfill their own agenda, and fulfilled their responsibilities, Paul wouldn't have addressed the church of Galatia as fools.

3) Leadership must be subjected to higher leadership, which leaves me wondering if these independent pastors are being rebellious to what clearly the bible identifies as scriptural. Paul stated be imitators of him, and obviously he praticed pastoralship subjection to a higher office.


We also read within multiple text, including in Acts 14:23, Paul had appointed pastors, and these pastors were subject to a higher office, thus, we see this same structure within an organization, which is scriptural.

So yes brother Epley, you said well when stating:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account........



When these brethren pulled out of the UPCI, after being advised not to by their leaders, and yet they still left, they're found in rebellion to their leaders and the word of God. This also leaves me wondering if these pastors are backslidden and going to hell, just as they accuse those individuals that leave their groups!


hmmm..........

Re: Any willing to answer my question?
 

I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
2. As the Apostle he had God given authority to address doctrinal and moral issues in those churches.
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
Example if you formed a club and voted in officials and made rules and someone in your club left your club and started his own you could NOT have him arrested BECAUSE your club might mean the world to you but has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. That authority is given by the consitution and state constitutions NOT the club. Your club might be wonderful but it is a non-entity to the legal community.
ALL organizations are clubs founded by men for certain reasons they may or may not do wonderful works but NONE are DIVINE in authority so Heaven does not back them up in their usurped authority.