Baptize "with" water....
 

Did you ever notice that the references concerning water baptism in the following scriptures did not say, "I baptize you in water," but rather said, "I baptize you with water." Just thought it was interesting.

Mt 3:11* I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water:
Lu 3:16* John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water;
Joh 1:26* John answered them, saying, I baptize with water:
Joh 1:33* And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water,

And why did paul say this?

1Co 1:17* For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Just BeenThinkinOutLoud!

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

Well if he said "I baptize you with olive oil" would that be better?

It could be an oxymoron to say "I baptize you IN water" since to baptize means to dip or submerge

he said that because that is what he was called to do, preach the gospel

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

Nowhere do the disciples make any kind of reference back to Jesus' words to Nic about baptism. It would seem if there was a connection between water baptism and being born of the water that there would be some connection somewhere besides the fact that the word, "water" is used.

Jesus was talking about being born a second time. A natural and a supernatural birth makes sense especially considering the very next verse defines it for you. Otherwise we are left to wonder if there is a birth of the water and then a birth of the Spirit both constituting a second birth (which is why so many people who believe that way insert the word again in the passage to make it make sense) or two new births being born again of the water and born again of the Spirit. No wonder Nic was confused. The obvious meaning of the passage has been exchanged for an obscure interpretation that requires packing in information from not only a future time but a completely different book and author.

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

The Apostles and early preachers and writers used a Bible called the LXX or Septuagint. It was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which was made about 300 years BC.

Here are two passages from those Scriptures:
The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet (Greek word bapto, Strong's no. 911, some times translated dipped) with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. Daniel 4:33

And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet (Greek word bapto, Strong's no. 911, some times translated dipped) with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will. Daniel 5:21

Although the Greek word bapto is some times translated dip or dipped, it can mean wet or wetted.

In a document called The Didache, which is variously dated from AD 50 to AD 250, there is a passage about water baptism. It directs that baptism is to be done in running water but if sufficient water is not available, it can be done by pouring water 3 times on the persons head in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. The AESV (Aramaic English Standard Version) includes the Didache in Acts chapter 15 as the letter from the Apostles and Elders to the Churches.

Also, since New Testament water baptism is a symbolic cleansing like some of the Old Testament rituals, that cleansing or washing could be done by pouring water upon, not by dipping the person into the water.

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

The above Scriptures plus Acts 1:5 and Acts 11:16 can be translated "in water" and also when the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) is mentioned can be translated "in" the Holy Spirit.

Just as a person is immersed or dipped (or may self-immerse or self-dip) in water for mikveh or water baptism, Jesus can immerse or dip us in the Holy Spirit. The word can also mean to submerge, overflow, or overwhelm which can also describe the HGB. One thing to note is that when a person is baptized with/in the Spirit, it also may say that the Spirit fell upon, or the Spirit came upon, or the Spirit was poured out upon a person.

One minister said something about baptizing a person at her kitchen sink. I asked him if he and the woman both went down into the sink like Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water in Acts 8:38. He told me that he baptizes with water the same way the Lord baptizes with the Spirit --by pouring it on the person.

Could this be another sacred cow that may be slaughtered?
Could this be a beautiful theory brutally murdered by a gang of facts?

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

Ah, Sam did good! As usual.

Some additional thoughts:

I have addressed this subject on a number of different forums, boards, threads, etc., so I will not go into any great detail here. The long and the short of it is as follows:

The ritual of baptism as we know it today has little in common with the baptisms performed by the Jews. Neither the Hebraic culture nor religion is reflected in our modern baptismal ceremonies.

The last question, first.

“… why did Paul say this? 1Co 1:17, For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

Although these words were spoken before Paul became a called Apostle, this is remains a direct response to Matthew 28:19, “Go ye therefore, and teach* all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: …” (*G3100; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enroll as scholar:--be disciple, instruct, teach.)

While it is not explicitly stated, from the context of the verse, it is ‘understood’ that the instructions are for the disciples of Christ to go out and make additional disciples of Christ – and not of (for) themselves. The baptism ritual is to demonstrate a ‘conversion’ action from a non-disciple (non-student) of Christ into the ‘brotherhood of students’ of a Rabbi. In this case, the baptism signifies that one has become a student of the Rabbi (Master) Jesus of Nazareth and are willing to be subject to his teaching, guidance, and correction. As such, the act formalizes a change in both the social and religious condition of an individual.

One additional item not usually brought out in most articles on baptisms, and that is important for Christians to be aware of, is that when one becomes a student (disciple, Talmid) of a rabbi, they perform a baptismal ritual, the ‘new’ student taking on the name of the rabbi (Matthew 28:19-20). This forms a distinct relationship between the teacher and the student - not unlike between a father and son.

Next, in a spiritual context, baptism is also akin to the required ritual cleansing started at Mt. Sinai, and which continues today among most observant Jews. See 1 Peter 3:21. While not specifically noted in the scriptures, it is part of the historic Jewish custom of performing the conversion ritual of a Gentile into the Jewish faith. We should notice the universal understanding of baptism among the Jews by the singular lack of any explanation by Peter to the crowd on the feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) why a baptism was required after they believed on the name of Jesus.

Therefore, there are two things at work when Paul states that he was not sent out to baptize people, (1) it is strongly implied that was a task best left to his travel/ministerial companions, because (2) it is also implied that if Paul conducted the baptisms, while also being the one responsible for the majority of the teaching, it could be assumed that Paul was creating a following of his own, rather than of Jesus: This would be a case of using the name of Jesus as a means to gain a personal following – a practice he saw taking place within the churches and which he vigorously denounced several times in his letters, and we can still see that subversion of the gospel practiced in many of our churches today.

To the other references of being baptized with/in water:

A person undergoing a Tevilah (ritual cleansing, baptism), is never touched by the person observing (judging) the baptismal process (in the Mikvah submersion/baptismal water). The Mikvah must be running water, not a ‘locked’ body of water (i.e., no bucket or pipe fed water tough, church baptismal pool, swimming pool, etc.). That is, it must be either in an ocean, a sea, lake, river, stream, spring fed pond or pool, and the pond/pool must contain at least enough water for normal size man to walk into and completely submerge himself completely (typically about 200 gallons). In a non-flowing pool, it is like getting wet, removing some of the dirt, and then reclaiming that dirt was one emerges from the water – dirt remaining suspended in the water until one moves through it getting out of the pool.

There is no ‘laying on of hands’ (touching) unless and until the Tevilah ritual is completed. This is because until the ritual has been completed, the person undergoing Tevilah is still ‘unclean’, and is not to be touched, less others become ‘unclean’ also. See 1 Timothy 5:22.

The person observing (judging) the Tevilah does not touch the person undergoing the ritual, rather, he/she observes the process. The person being baptized performs the ritual themselves, as a willful act, without assistance or coercion. The observer is to judge that the individual was, in deed, fully submersed and met all of the Tevilah requirements. After this, blessing may be offered and if deemed appropriate, there was the laying on of hands. See Acts 8:14-17 as one example.

The form of the ritual that we observe today has its foundation in the Gentile church of Rome, that as a major tenet was the separation (divorce) of the ’Roman Church’ from all influence of ‘those Jews’.

For additional information I recommend the following on-line resources as ‘starter’ research materials.

The Jewish Background of Christian Baptism
http://www.haydid.org/ronimmer.htm

The teaching of Sam Soleyn
http://www.soleyn.com/download_audio.html

May your studies be blessed.

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

Why does NT baptism have to reflect Judaism when we are not even under the law to begin with?

Re: Baptize "with" water....
 

Are you addressing pseudojew?