Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Ephesians 4 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Many churches recognize pastors, evangelists, teachers, and of course the select are known as prophets in apostolic ranks. However that is only four. Where is the office of the apostle? Has it ceased? Can anyone be called to that office today? If so, do you know anyone who you would truly consider an apostle?

How many church confuse the office with the 9 spiritual gifts today?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Indeed.

Not only this... but, while we do have evangelists, an evangelist is considered to a be a short term & traveling position and teachers are generally used on an off and on basis as well.

The only steady ministry of these 5 in a church is that of pastor. The rest are gone, temporary or only used occasionally.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Which leads me to question whether a church should deem through the direction of the Holy ghost and through the calling of the life of the saint, an office that the person may fulfill in the local church. This could also go abroad as well.

I have heard of churches deeming evangelists and prophets.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

First, what is the definition of "Apostle"? Maybe that will give us more insight to the apostolic office.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

My definition drawing from what I see in the Bible (and I welcome correction on this) is one who goes about starting and then nurturing & mentoring various works in various places.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Indeed, I have heard that line of thought before. I also believe an apostle is called to set order in local churches, which would fall into nurturing and mentoring you mentioned.

But what do you think, if someone came out today claiming to be an apostle, wouldn't 95% of christendom brand such a false prophet/false apostle...?

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

I think most would brand them as such. It would depend a lot on how that "apostle" defined what an apostle is.

Most that would call themselves an apostle tend to have very widely defined powers & authorities in peoples lives. If he felt that he was God's gift to the world... yeah... that won't turn out well.

If he operated with humility and only referred to himself as such because of the work he was doing then I would think he would be more widely received.

That is the thing with the five fold ministries. Too many people view these things as what the ARE. I AM a pastor... I AM an apostle... and this, per their view, demands certain respect etc.

If I do the work of an apostle. Call me an apostle.
If I do the work of a shepherd. Call me a shepherd or a pastor.
Etc

But people takes these things on as labels of who they are rather than definitions of what they do.

Often the way in which people profess their calling has much to do with the level of acceptance they experience.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Yes indeed I believe so. With the above thought would you think we incorrectly name some evangelists or missionaries who may really be filling the office of an apostle?

Note Paul's words

For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:


Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb


There seems to be a difference between the office of an apostle and the office of the original 13 apostles (counting Paul)

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

Where is the five fold ministry?

In my opinion it is alive and well and operating all around us.
We just don't always recognize some of those involved because they do not agree with us on everything doctrinally and in practice.

Re: Where is the five fold ministry?
 

I personally think so. However, it should not even matter what we address them as long as they are filling their role scripturally. This brings in the point that D4T mentioned about "people taking these things on as labels of who they are rather than definitions of what they do."

When a pastor gets angry because you called him Brother James instead of Pastor James or Apostle James as the case may be, there is definitely a problem...IMO