If A Man Die
 

Part 1

The Patriarch Job gaves us teaching on what happens at death.

14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? Job 14:10

That is the question men want answered. When a man dies where is he?

14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, (Sheol) that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:12-13

Job gives the answer of course inspired by the Holy Ghost for our benefit. He says the man that dies lies down and sleeps in Sheol. Job teaches that Sheol is a place where the dead sleep.

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. Job 14:14-15

Note when Job speaks about his death he uses the words "I" and "me". He never thought in terms this was just concerning his body but rather HIMSELF.

He never asks "Where will a mans BODY be". He asks if A MAN die where will HE be.

So we see he says that men lie down and sleep (metaphor for death) until their change comes.

For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living. Job 30:23

It is appointed for men to die. He knew there was a house waiting there in Sheol for all the dead.

Note the imagery concerning where he believed HE HIMSELF would be going at death.

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

Job taught that when a man is in Sheol he makes his bed in darkness. Obviously the bed is not literal but what does a man do with a bed? HE SLEEPS.

Job is instructing us about what happens when a man dies. He sleeps in Sheol, the grave. They go to the bars of the pit which is again also Sheol. So keep in mind that Jesus said the gates of Sheol/Hades would not prevail against the Church!

Re: If A Man Die
 

Part 2

So what we get is a symbolic picture of what happens when a man dies. He goes to Sheol/Hades. This is like what we would consider the common grave of the dead. A place where men are held by spiritual bars or we might say "gates".

This is where we get the phrase "the gates of hades". Once there men sleep the sleep of death symbolized by Job saying his bed was there and he would sleep together with others in THE DUST. So obviously Sheol/Hades is in the ground.

Job expected to be there until his CHANGE came. Any idea when that might be?

He said when a man lies down to sleep there he will rise no more until the Heavens be no more. When might that be?

6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev. 6:12-17

Indeed John saw the Heaven departing away when the day of the Lord finally comes! Then will be the time when men can rise again out of death.

Job said he would be in Sheol until his change came.

19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:25-26

So the Holy Ghost was showing through Job that his change would come on the day Jesus returns to the Earth!

What change was Job referring to? Was it not the change from mortal to immortal? From corruption to incorruption? Again Job is pointing us to the time of Jesus coming when he will first things first raise the dead!

Re: If A Man Die
 

Part 3

So Job asked:

If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

We have seen that Job taught his change would come when his redeemer would stand on the Earth at the last day.

Paul adds more detail.

15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor. 15:50-53

In his teaching on resurrection of the dead Paul sounds much like Job. This is the event Job had been waiting for. Now he could be set free from the gates of Sheol/Hades!

17:13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol), when our rest together is in the dust. Job 17:13-16

What is the hope Job spoke of? Was it not to be raised from the dead? Was it not to be set free from the bars of the pit which was Sheol/Hades?

Job taught that all went to this place at death. They slept there together in the dust until the time of their change. They were being held captive by the gates of Sheol/Hades.

Yet our redeemer who Job prophesied would stand on the Earth on the latter day said:


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell (Hades/Sheol) shall not prevail against it. Matt:16:18

Paul taught the resurrection was the hope of the believer.

24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Job asked where was his hope? Was it that when he died he would automatically have immortality, eternal life?

No rather Paul explained the believers hope in the resurrection of the dead being performed by our redeemer Jesus Christ when he stands on the Earth at the latter day just as Job prophesied!

One final thought.

It is commonly taught nowadays that Jesus took all the "souls" out of Sheol/Hades when he went back to Heaven and now whenever one dies his soul goes straight to Heaven.

Note what Paul said though in his resurrection teaching.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Sheol/Hades) , where is thy victory?

If one went straight to Heaven as an immortal soul at death why is Paul saying that AT THE RESURRECTION then will be fulfilled the truth that death is swallowed up in victory?

Why does Paul ONLY THEN ask where is the victory of Sheol/Hades?

Obviously the saints who died were still there! They were still in Sheol/Hades that is THE GRAVE until the resurrection just like Job said was the case.

Then Jesus words will be fulfilled that the "gates of Sheol/Hades will not prevail against his Church"!

They will come forth from corruption to incorruption and from mortal to immortal. They will have life instead of death!

So according to Paul until the resurrection at the last day Sheol/Hades still had the victory against the saints. But on that day Jesus himself Jobs and our redeemer will stand on the Earth and will by his authority as the firstborn of the dead use the keys in his ownership of Sheol/Hades to unlock those bars Job taught us about and set his people free from death!

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell (Sheol/Hades) and of death. Rev. 1:17-18

So Jesus has not as of yet used those keys and unlocked those gates. But be patient he is coming!

Re: If A Man Die
 

mike do you believe those that are lost are being tormented right now

Re: If A Man Die
 

No, he believes they are asleep.

I will bring my post from the other thread over here which show my views on this.

Re: If A Man Die
 

If a person sleeps, then are they not alive as well at the same time? Your concept is that souls "sleep" upon death. Then when they "LIVE" at the judgment you claim they come out of sleep. Yet you question how there can be LIFE in my view as to how people can LIVE if their bodies slept Yet you believe the soul sleeps, and sleeping necessitates life as well. Would not the soul that is sleeping be necessarily still alive, too? Both views have EXISTENCE involved during your soul sleep and my conscious presence in hell fire. If the soul "sleeps" before judgment, how can the person be made "ALIVE" if sleeping means they are alive, anyway?

You can rephrase it all when it comes to your view so you do not use the term "ALIVE" or "LIFE" when you say they "sleep", but you claim my view shows a soul "ALIVE" with "LIFE" in hell fire. Generally there is no difference in whether or not one is ALIVE in either view if you accuse me of saying the soul is not dead but alive. The point is that whether in hell fire or asleep, they are still in the same state of EXISTENCE.

If you claim my view demands a state of LIFE when it should be DEATH, then your view of soul sleep has the soul just as much ALIVE with LIFE when it sleeps. Are not people ALIVE when they sleep? You see, I can ask you the same questions.

So why does the term "LIVE" occur in reference to the souls who slept that they might be judged if sleeping means LIFE anyway?

The point is that this refers to BODIES. No, bodies do not have a life apart from souls. The body is DEAD without the spirit. When the spirit leaves, so does the soul. The only thing that sleeps is the body. And I claim SLEEP is involved here with the body only because the body shall arise again. Again, DEATH is not non-existence. It is SEPARATION.

A person is ALIVE when there is no separation any more. Technically, death means separation of soul/spirit from the body. Rejoining these would be LIFE.

Your words in that study are offkey. You claim it would be death swallowed up of life if the SOUL was conscious and with the Lord upon death. That is not what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 15. He was speaking in reference to the BODY. When the BODY is made immortal -- NOT THE SOUL -- death is swallowed up of life. Absence from body is presence with the Lord. That meant that should he die he would leave his body and be with the Lord. His soul and spirit departed from his body. That is called death.

Again, do not miss the actual meaning of death. It is not non-existence. It is separation of what is meant to be together. Soul from body - first death. Soul from God - second death. So the soul being in the presence of the Lord is not death swallowed up of life. That concept led to the full preterist thought, for they believe souls slept until AD70 and then at that point they resurrected to eternal life in heaven. Your idea is the same thing basically, only you think the resurrection has not occurred yet. I agree the resurrection has not yet occurred. But I do not agree we get eternal life when we resurrect. We already have it now! Eternal Life is a person! :)

You misconstrued what that scripture stated. Thoughts "perishing" does not mean the soul is no longer functioning in being able to have thought. You are taking that far too literally as though the soul/mind ceases to function or exist.

What about your sleep? Does your mind cease to function? You claim the soul sleeps, and yet you say that is death and thoughts perish at that point. Sleeping is a far cry from the soul ceasing to exist as though the thought process ceases to function.

The Psalmist merely means that all plans and schemes are over. It is not saying the soul ceases to function or exist. Notice Jesus said the SOUL has many plans and schemes when he described the words of the rich man, “and I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry; but God said unto him, Thou fool! this night thy soul shall be required of time.” The Psalm is simply saying such plans are gone.

So then how can they be sleeping? Their souls cease to function in that case, not sleep. Whose soul does not function when it sleeps?

Paul stated that he is present with the Lord should his soul/spirit depart from his body. That is not death being swallowed up of life because the context of death swallowed of life is speaking OF THE BODY. WHEN THE BODY is no longer mortal and puts on immortality THEN death is swallowed up of life.

I thought you believed in the physical resurrection. That is the context of death swallowed up of life in 1 Cor 15. We cannot apply that to anything other than the body being made immortal. How can you say a soul being conscious with the Lord upon leaving its body is "death swallowed up of life" if you believe that is speaking of the resurrected body?

Of course not. The body is DEAD. The soul is present with God immediately upon that death, and is conscious and not asleep. The BODY is said to sleep only in the sense that it shall rise again, and not in the sense that it is still animate

SHEOL/HADES are one and the same place. Hades has fire according to Jesus. What about the fire?

I agree resurrection is what is involved in saying the gates of hell will not prevail against the church...at least in part, anyway. But Paul said absence from his body meant presence with the Lord. That explains it all. And the gates of hell are not referring to the SOUL needing resurrection but the BODY.

Souls are not in the grave. Bodies are in graves. Soul leaves body at death.

Re: If A Man Die
 

"Sleep" is a metaphor for death. When Jesus said Lazarus was "asleep" he meant he was dead.

11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. John 11:11-13

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. Verse 14



See what I mean? Sleep in this context does not mean one is alive and dreaming. It means they are dead.

Then the rest of the story of Lazarus confirms none of what you are teaching but rather their hope was Lazarus would be raised at the last day.

11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:24

Re: If A Man Die
 

when the rich man died physically it speaks of him being torment what are your thoughts on this mike are the unrighteous in torment now

Re: If A Man Die
 

No it does not if you dont understand what he meany by what he said. And by the way what about the things Job taught us? No comment? Was he deceived?

Re: If A Man Die
 

Thanks for your thoughts.

I agree SLEEP refers to death. But does that mean the soul ceases to function when one dies? Does that mean the soul does not exist between death and resurrection? Exactly what "death" is speaking of is the issue. What was DEAD in Christ's words? THE BODY.

I do not believe one is alive and dreaming when one is dead. The point I made, though, is that you said LIFE is there if the soul is absent from the body and present with the Lord in the manner I explained it. That made you question me as to how they can LIVE at the resurrection if they are already alive. I stated they are SLEEPING IN BODY ALONE, and conscious in soul and present in soul with the Lord. DEATH is the separation of the soul from the body.

That is speaking of his body alone. And it makes perfect sense.

You see, you did not explain 2 Cor 5's reference to absence from the body and presence with the Lord, but just asked questions and presumed upon our view some idea of "death swallowed up of life". So, instead of asking questions about death swallowed up of life, which you know strictly refers to the BODY resurrection, please explain what Paul meant by saying absence from the body is presence with the Lord.

IN YOUR VIEW there is never absence from the body! You claim the soul sleeps in the body in the grave upon death. You clam resurrection occurs in the future when the SOUL AND BODY rise together. So how can one ever be absent from the body in your view?