The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

It is common for oneness Pentecostals to argue in favor of the initial evidence doctrine, which simply states that anyone who truly receives the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues at the time of the baptism. It is common to link Romans 8:9 to this doctrine "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Thus the conclusion is that if someone does not speak in tongues they have not received the Holy Spirit, they don't belong to Christ, and as such they are lost and facing an eternity in hell if they don't repent, get baptized in the name of Jesus, and receive the Holy Ghost with this initial evidence of speaking in tongues. We're pretty much all familiar with this doctrine, I'm just restating the obvious for point of reference for this thread.

But the problem of course is that there just isn't any solid scriptural foundation for this doctrine because the Bible never says that someone has to speak in tongues to be saved, nor does it ever say that speaking in tongues is the one universal initial evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost.

See if there were just one scripture that said "except you speak in tongues you cannot be saved" or "we know the people who are saved because they have spoken in tongues" then the argument would be considerably stronger if not altogether settled. But of course there is NO scripture that teaches such, at best the doctrine is built on stringing some scriptures together, making assumptions, and arriving at a soteriological theory at best.

None of this so far is particularly new here on AFF, but what has me pondering tonight is why do oneness Pentecostals go into full denial mode when the shoe is on the other foot? For example, if there were scriptures that plainly said that if someone does X, Y, and/or Z they are saved or can know they are saved, why are those scriptures ignored? Why is the plain language of the inspired, infallible, inerrant, authoritative, living, Word of God not good enough for some oneness Pentecostals? How can someone really defend a teaching which insists that unless someone has spoken in tongues they cannot be saved, in the face of plain and basic scriptures?

Here's where I'm going: This weekend I've been studying through 1 John again, and charted some things out I'd like to share with regard to this topic. I admit freely this is not all that scholarly, and I'm not trying to impress, so if you want to knock my study feel free to do so, but my question to oneness Pentecostals who affirm speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation is: "How can the initial evidence doctrine stand in light of these scriptures?"

First, the book of 1 John was written for 5 reasons"
1)For Christian fellowship (1:3)
2)that the believers joy may be full (1:4)
3)they the believers sin not (2:1)
4)that they might believe on the name of the Son of God (5:13)
5)that they might know they have eternal life (5:13)


In first John there are a variety of "tests' given so that we can know who the true believers are and who the false teachers/false believers are. These tests are along 3 lines
Social=have to do with our relationships with others
Theological=have to do with what we believe
Moral=have to do with how we live.

In the order they appear in the book, here are scriptures which tell us HOW WE CAN KNOW WE ARE SAVED:

Assurance of Salvation:
1 John 1:7,9
1 John 2:3,5-6
1 John 2:10
1 John 2:17
1 John 2:23b
1 John 2:29
1 John 3:6,7
1 John 3:9
1 John 3:14
1 John 3:17-23
1 John 3:24
1 John 4:2
1 John 4:4,6-7
1 John 4:11-16,21
1 John 5:1-5
1 John 5:10
1 John 5:11-13
1 John 5:18-19

Evidence we are not saved:
1 John 1:6
1 John 1:8,10
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:9,11
1 John 2:15-17a
1 John 2:22-23a
1 John 3:6,8
1 John 3:10
1 John 3:14b-15
1 John 4:3
1 John 4:5,6,8
1 John 4:20
1 John 5:10
1 John 5:12b

I was going to put all the scriptures in here but it was too time consuming for tonight (its already past 11pm here). So let me summarize:

1)We can know that we are saved if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ, that He came in the flesh, made atonement for our sins, and is God. These are the theological tests.
2)We can know that we are saved if we have love for fellow Christians (in the modern sense this would mean not only those of our own organization, that is in fact the opposite, a party spirit), love for all people, and genuine concern and compassion for those who are in need. In a word-if our lives are defined by love for others, it is a strong evidence that we belong to God. These are the social tests.
3)We can know that we are saved if we are trying to live Christ like lives, defined by holiness, godliness, righteousness, and a keeping of God's commandments. If our lives reflect Christ we can know that we are saved. These are the moral tests.

No where in 1 John does he specify (or even mention) speaking in tongues. It is not even a factor. But we are told very specifically:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

The only reason I am saved is because of what Christ did at the cross.
I could not do anything to save myself. Plain and simple.
I am a walking advertisement of the mercy and power of God.

After I was saved I received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

After receiving the Holy Spirit I was water baptized.

I'm sure this does not agree with some of you. :nah

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

No solid foundation? How about going to the places in the book of Acts where we actually can see what happened when New Testament Christians received the Holy Spirit.

That tells a different story altogether does it not?

Because when we examine the five actual times the Spirit inspired us to see we can say with pretty strong assurance when the Spirit came tongues came.

Whats more in the times we are given to see there is NO OTHER EVIDENCE given to us with the exception in Acts 19:6.

Its true my friends. There is NOWHERE in Acts where we see a single soul receive the Spirit apart from tongues and prophecy!

If there was the Evangelical cults would have produced it long ago and we would stand corrected.

But it has not happened because no scripture that details receiving the Spirit shows us any other initial evidence than what I have mentioned.

How sad to see former Oneness Pentecostals falling into the Evangelical deception.

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

For the simple reason that the people he wrote the letter to were already born of God. They did not need to be told how to be saved they needed to be encouraged in living an overcoming life.

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

Interesting that not one time is tongues mentioned in epistles to confirm believers salvation. That's something to consider.

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

Interesting that not one time is tongues mentioned in epistles to confirm believers salvation. That's something to consider.

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

When we define the CHRIST the way Isaiah defined it we can quickly rule out many groups and organizations.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

No Evangelical groups believe Christ is the Father and the Son.
What you are calling a "party spirit" may simply be saints that are contending for the faith once delivered to them by the apostles.

Tho we love all men in a general sense we put the brotherhood first.

Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 1 Peter 2:17

The brotherhood is all saints that believe in the common salvation.

Sadly most groups today have fallen to Evangelical doctrine. I talk to people regularly who contend that Christians sin every day.

Holiness is certainly a sign one is saved but one must first be filled with the Holy Spirit before they can walk in it.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13

Obedience and holiness come as fruit of the Spirit. The contention between us is about INITIAL SALVATION and how it is obtained, not about the life of a Christian after receiving the Spirit.

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

Please answer carefully. Since every epistle was written to people who were already born of God can we assume that none of the verses in the epistles tell people how to be saved or how to know that they are saved? I think three steppers pick a large variety of verses from the epistles to support their beliefs. So it must not be the case that none of the epistles reiterated the steps required for salvation ever.

Tongues are mentioned in only 1 out of 21 epistles. And in the epistle they are mentioned in we are asked the rhetorical question "do all speak in tongues?"

Re: The Real Evidence of Salvation
 

No, not all do.
Only the ones baptized with the Holy Spirit.