Apostolic Friends Forum - Two Salvational Experiences

In light of all the salvational discussions ongoing here on this forum, I thought I would share my thoughts. I'm not a theologian, and certainly don't claim to have insight to all the answers. But I wanted to share the journey I’ve been on, and some of my thoughts.

When I first left OP establishment, I was questioning all of it. So many of the things that I had experienced in the church were not biblical, and for that reason, I questioned everything. I questioned the Oneness, Holy Ghost baptism, speaking in tongues, water baptism, along with all the holiness "standards".

I knew that I didn't want to throw the "baby" out with the bath water. I knew there were many things I didn't understand, but the difference was that now I was free to question, seek, and search for the truth.

There have been many years of searching, and wanting to hold onto and preserve the Apostles truth, but also endeavoring to throw out the layers of men's teachings that had come through the generations of Pentecost that really were extra-biblical.

That is really hard to do.

However, one thing became quite clear to me through all of this. If it was important to the Apostles, then it should be important to me. If the apostles practiced, preached, and taught it, then this is what I should do also, regardless of "why" they may have done it.

The whole discussion of whether water baptism in the name of Jesus in and of itself is the particular format that “saves” someone will no doubt continue to go in circles. However, I do know this… the apostles practiced and did it, as without a doubt there are many scriptures that record this in the book of Acts... and if it was good for them... it is good for me.

I will not go so far as to tell someone they are headed to hell if they don't do these things... (reason for this discussed below), because that is between them and God... I am not the judge, He is... but as for me, if the apostles did it, I need to do it too.

That is how I understand it now. If it worked for the apostles, then it can work for me too. If they baptized with immersion in water in the name of Jesus, why would I not want to do it? There were those in the book of Acts who believed (Cornelius), and had not received the Holy Ghost, but when they realized there was more to this walk with the Lord than just believing, they believed AND they received the Holy Ghost. Quite simple, as in Cornelius’ case! We KNOW they spoke in a language different from their own, whether or men or angel's we don't know... even on another occasion, Simon the sorcerer *heard* them speaking in tongues, and wanted the gift that they had. It was something you could hear. It was an evidence that left no doubt to those around.

Why would I not want the same kind of experience today, when it is available for me?

I would not go so far as to tell someone they are "going to hell" if they don't have the evidence (read on and I’ll explain why), but instead I would rather point them to the Giver, to the one who wants them to receive, and encourage them to seek the Giver of the Gift of the Holy Ghost in order to receive the power from on high.

We don’t see the apostles proclaiming to those who believed, but hadn’t received the gift that they were “going to hell”… (I don’t see that kind of talk mentioned to the house of Cornelius!) No, a thousand times no! Instead, what Peter did was show them the next step in receiving their full measure of salvation! They didn’t condemn Cornelius to hell because he had only just believed, but instead instructed him that there was more!

I am convinced that there are TWO experiences possible for the believer, and they build on each other. For some - they receive both experiences at the same time; for others - it can be two separate experiences.

I believe that first experience must be when one comes to the cross, and believes on Calvary, and the work done there, much like the disciples believed that Jesus was Lord, even before Calvary. They believed, they loved Him, but they were still lacking. Their belief was not enough. There is an act of repentance that comes when faced with the cross, much as the disciples I'm sure repented of their unbelief when faced with the death of Christ on the cross.

But that wasn't all there was. The greater experience was yet to come, in the Upper Room. This is when after believing, and repenting, they experienced the gift of the POWER from on high, as evidenced by speaking in an unknown language.

When you see Peter after the day of Pentecost, he was not the weak, tongue-tied, scared, lying soul, (whom he had been after he had believed and while at the cross)... but when he received the POWER, it revolutionized his life, changed him completely, and caused him to be BOLD. There was a complete change in Him after the Upper Room experience!

This example, I believe, should be the one with which we understand where the Evangelicals are with their doctrine of "believism". Just believe, and that's enough.

No, it's not... there is more available to us through the POWER of the indwelling spirit of Christ. If we haven't received the power, we just need to ask, because the Giver of the gift desires for us all to partake of it!

I stand against the lie that that you can just "believe and be saved" after going full circle these many years. I believe we need the infilling of the POWER of Christ in our lives in order to lead overcoming lives that are pleasing to the Lord. Faith is part of it all, essential to all, but without the power, those who are still at the cross, believing, and have not advanced to the power available to them are subject to dismal failures as they progress through their spiritual walk with the Lord.

We must have a cross experience, a repentance experience, and part of that involves baptism, which is symbolically identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But after that, it is most imperative that we move on then to the Upper Room experience, which is where that gift of power comes to us with the evidence of tongues! Because of that power from on high, we can be changed from being a believer, to being an OVERCOMER.

I want to uphold, and show others Jesus, the Gift Giver. I believe we can have far more success with people to show them the example of two experiences, and encourage them to move on from just believing, to having an overcoming experience and walk with Christ. However, if we point fingers, and tell them they are “going to hell”, they will turn away in disgust, when faced with that kind of judgment and condemnation.

Don’t play down the experiences someone has had, but BUILD upon them. Look at how Peter dealt with Cornelius. It is line upon line, and precept upon precept. Build upon a foundation that is already laid, if someone is a believer, and hasn’t yet experienced the power. I believe the results of birthing a true born again overcoming Christian into the kingdom of Christ would be much greater if this were the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord (Post 1287067)

One can surmise, editorialize and theorize all day long about the Apostles and one can claim they're Apostolic, but the ultimate question is concerning the signs, wonders and power that accompanied the apostles.

Sadly, the folks who claim to be Apostolic have no more signs, wonders and power following them than those who they view as non-Apostolic. 'Apostolics' are just as sick and healthy, broke and prosperous, sad and happy as non-'apostolics'. Other than outward appearance, there's little difference between those who claim to have the truth and those who do not follow the 'apostolic' message.

What difference does baptism make, for example. Line up 100 people and you'll find generally the same life issues in those 100 be they 'apostolic' or Baptist or Mormon, doesn't matter how they're baptized. There will be very little difference in their life experiences. Everybody gets sick, some get well, some have more financial problems than the others, some have relatively successful lives, others struggle.

The 'apostolics' claim to have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as compared to non-'apostolics'. The truth is, the 'apostolics' are no different than the non-'apostolics' and the 'apostolics' do not produce anything resembling the power and authority of the real Apostolics of the 1st century. The 'apostolic' movement of today is just another of thousands of Christian sects with their particular brand of Christianity which may differ theologically but differs little as far as living in the real world of today.