Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics
 

Those who believe one is saved through belief in the resurrection of Jesus apart from water baptism or the Holy Spirit baptism. Your belief includes Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics and so forth as I understand it.

So if Protestants and Catholics are among the saved people what about Jehovah Witnesses? Do you count them to be saved? If not why?

Catholics are saved? Maybe a few. Most come out from among her.

JW do not believe that Jesus was one with the Father. They teach that Jesus is/was Michael the archangel, and that he is subordinate to God.

They believe that the Tetragrammaton is pronounced "Jehovah" and that they are the only group proclaiming his name (sound familiar?).


They teach that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than an active force, whatever that means.

But, you already knew all this.

MTD,

Like yourself, Catholics and Anglicans believe in baptismal regeneration.

Lutherans are confused. They teach that faith alone saves, and that baptism is a means of grace by which God grants faith and forgiveness.

Re: Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics
 

Well yes but Im addressing those on this forum who believe that all that's essential to be saved is belief that Jesus is the son of God and he rose from the dead.

Do they include groups who assent to this? They are born again?

Re: Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics
 

That's not a very accurate desciption

They believe salvation is through faith in the one that DIED. In Him Personally. Not that they believe the resurrection happened and that makes them saved

Lutherans do or did believe baptism is essential. Maybe they changed.

Re: Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics
 

MTD, I'll answer your question, but it is an oversimplification, so please allow me to dissect it a little bit.
Not necessarily. More accurately stated it is the belief that the church is not limited to a particular denomination or movement. We (I) do believe that some Baptists are saved, some Lutherans, some Methodists, some Presbyterians, some Anglicans, and likely some Catholics, however that doesn't mean that (IMO) the people who identify themselves with those groups are saved at the same proportion. What I mean is I think that there are probably more people who are actually saved within say the Baptist church movement than the more liberal Protestant denominations. and while I wouldn't feel comfortable saying all Catholics are lost, I do think that there is probably a very low percentage of genuinely saved people identified with the Catholic Church, especially considering all of the idolatry (in regard to statues/icons, Mary, the Pope, etc). I would certainly suggest that a Catholic leave that system, but I don't think its an impossibility to be a Catholic and be saved. But having said that, it is my opinion that most people who identify themselves as Christian in the US are false converts. My guess would be only about 20% of those who identify themselves as Christian in the US are actually saved. And I wouldn't be shocked if the percentage was lower.
(Bear in mind the Parable of the sower in Mark 4, we have many shallow ground types-(emotional response/no root), and theory ground types (too busy with everything else to really be committed to Christ)-neither of these types of people ultimately bear any fruit, despite the fact that they both have a favorable disposition to the gospel. I think the fact that they don't bear fruit is indicates not that they were saved and fell away, but that they were never saved in the first place, and only gave the appearance of salvation for a time).

I don't believe someone just identifies themselves as Christian, joins a church, or says the sinner prayer to be saved. I believe that someone has to understand the basic gospel message and repent of their sins and trust in Christ. If they truly do this I believe God justifies, regenerates, and adopts them (simultaneously from the human viewpoint). And if the Spirit of God dwells within, then just as the seed in the next Parable (Mark 4:26-29) grows automatically, although day by day its growth is imperceptible, in the same way those who are truly born again of the Spirit (i.e. regenerate) will produce fruit. They can do nothing but produce fruit, for the Spirit dwells within.

Thus I understand salvation as complete surrender by faith in Christ and to Christ repentance, and the evidence that this conversion was genuine will be the work of the Spirit in the person life (see James 2:16-24).

Ok, so I know thats a bit wordy, so now to answer your question:
I am going to say NO, but I'm going to make it a qualified no.

I don't believe them to be saved because they are part of a heretical cult with many bad doctrines (though you agree with them on annihilationism) which denies the deity of Jesus, and their works based salvation model which includes forced "evangelism" (I think JWs call it preaching ministry) and complete submission to the "Governing Body" (the Watch Tower Tract Society).

However, I do think there is a possibility that some could be saved and this is why:
Jehovah's Witness believe in and worship Jesus Christ. They believe He is the Messiah, the Son of God. They believe that His literal death on the cross atoned for their sins. And (in a sense) they believe they are made right with God by faith in Christ.

We also need to consider that JW's are modern day Arians. And if we say that no Arian ever can be saved (which could possibly be a true statement, I'm just not willing to be that dogmatic on it), then we have to consider that during the 3rd century the majority of the church was Arian for a while, and in the East Christianity was almost exclusively Arian, and many of the Germanic Tribes that took over the Roman Empire were Arian. Thus the church of the first 5 (especially 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries) included a LOT of Arians. I don't think its absolutely impossible that none of them were saved, so I tend to think the same about JW's.

However-Arians denied the deity of Christ, but JWs teach He is the arch angel Micheal. I'm not sure whether or not the early Arians denied the physical resurrection, but I know JW's do. So if we say that belief in the absolute deity of Jesus and his physical resurrection are required to be saved, then the answer is NO on JW's, and thats why I have to ultimately say no, in my opinion. I would strongly advise any JW to leave that organization immediately and find a good Bible believing church.

I think the same about Mormonism, though I don't know as much about it. I say a qualified no.

Some would say, well if you leave the door open, even just a crack (and really its more like the little bit of light that peeks out under the door) then do you believe Muslims, Hindus, and agnostics are saved?

I'd say NO. Here's the difference. I do believe that salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ, and in particular through the person and work of Christ. Thus if someone denies that He is the Son of God, that He died on the Cross, or that He is risen, I can't see anyway that person can be saved.

Whereas JWs and Mormons are both heretical cults, they still at least claim to believe the gospel (I think we could throw in 7th Day Adventists too---and a lot of people would even throw in....ONENESS PENTECOSTALS). They are at least on the fringe of the Christian circle (probably just outside of it). So while I'd be surprised if we saw JWs in heaven, I can't say I'd feel "deceived" or "duped".

However if there were Sikhs, Muslims, Rastafarians, etc, I admit, I would be terribly confused. But even then, I would think they could only be there because the sacrifice of Christ had so much greater an application than what we understand. BUT-I don't see that in the scriptures, I see eternal life and death. Two ways. Heaven and hell. Well done and depart from me. So in every way I have to reject universalism, and thus I have to affirm to exclusivity of salvation through Christ, only for those who repent of their sins and trust in Him. And IMO to believe any thing else is to reject the clear teaching of God's Word.

That should stir up some conversation.

Come on Mike what's up? You ask a question and don't engage? I spent like an hour typing that. Show me some love bro.

Re: Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics
 

now that's funny :heeheehee

Re: Question For The Evangelical Type Apostolics
 

:heeheehee Ooops!

My guess would be even lower.

I agree fully.

Now were getting to the heart of my question. What TO YOU is the basic gospel message? Who does one have to believe Christ is to make their faith effective?

Is it more wrong for example to teach Jesus pre existed as Michael the archangel than to teach he is the SECOND PERSON of THREE PERSONS OF GOD who all existed eternally?

I don't think they believe in annihilation. From what I gather it seems they don't believe the wicked will be raised from the dead period. How many bad doctrines can one go along with and still be saved? Does any particular doctrine cancel out ones faith when he makes that initial belief in Christ?

I mean say the JW'S knock on ones door. He has been feeling bad about his evil lifestyle. They pray with him to accept Christ. Is he still lost because of THEIR false doctrines?

What you refer to as forced "evangelism" seems to me like an acceptance of Christs command to go and make disciples. It seems like a "vision" which hardly any other Churches do have.

How about on the other hand Evangelical and Pentecostal Churches go arm in arm with Pagans and Catholics celebrating Christmas as if were something ordained of God? At least JW'S understand the compromise involved.

So you consider Apostolics just OUTSIDE of Christianity? Why then should it be surprising they would (some of them) say Evangelicals are just outside of it?

From what I recall you are NOT Trinitarian. You believe in Oneness. And yet you present a scenario where the Evangelical Trinitarians are INSIDE Christianity but the Oneness believers are OUTSIDE of it? Hmmmmmm.

Hey MTD thanks for the response. I'm not able to comment at length yet. But I'd like to clarify the last quote you responded to. I don't place OPs outside the circle of Christianity but I was pointing out that some do lump OPs in with the other 3 groups and while I don't agree I can see why.