Love One Another and the Cross
 

Shazeep and I have been wrangling without the degree of banter that can be had with SOME people (know whom I mean?) about salvation and Acts 2:38.

I realize there's a fundamental difference between he and I concerning the cross. He says I am judging when I say those who have not obeyed Acts 2:38 are lost, when I claim I am merely repeating what the Bible teaches. WHy shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message. he says the DOCTRINE of salvation is love one another. I say, love one another -- the the degree Jesus meant it -- is not even possible without salvation FIRST. And Acts 2:38 is the door to salvation. He thinks there is another door.

So let's talk CROSS, and I will begin and ask some questions to either confirm or remove my suspicions about your doctrine.

Shazeep,

Do you believe people who have no knowledge of the cross can be saved before they ever get that knowledge? If so, why and how?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Here are some of my thoughts in the meantime.

Peter preached the gospel and the manner to apply the gospel to our lives on the first day anyone was ever baptized with the Spirit to indwell them as temples, for more than just anointing to prophesy.

First Peter explains the issue of tongues in response to the people's confusion about them.

Acts 2:13-21 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. (14) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: (15) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Having introduced them to his preaching by answering their confusion about tongues, he explained it was Joel's prophecy coming to pass dealing with the pouring out of God's Spirit. Then he led them to the issue of calling on the name of the Lord for salvation.

So he spoke next of salvation.

vv. 22-36..

Then the people wanted to know what to do about it.

Peter told them Acts 2:38 and said it was not for them only, but for everyone across the world (HINT HINT, Godsdrummer, ;) ).

And then we read 3000 were saved .

Now, where did he say, "Then Peter said unto them, love one another." And that was the end of it? Where did he say anything about the need to love in this chapter?

Sure, we read of it in epistles for those AFTER they're already saved by the inclusion of themselves into the cross by means of Acts 2:38. And we read Jesus saying it, whose words were explained in those epistles to those already saved. But we see NOTHING of it in the ears of the people who wanted to know what to do to be saved.

How do you answer that?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Not sure if shaz shall respond, after reading his post about thinking he'd paint me into a corner I can't get out of. lol (Quite an opinion of oneself, eh?)

But I will lay out my thought, anyway.

Shaz referred to those who say LORD LORD, as if to say my belief is useless since I know Jesus is Lord, and Jesus said many will know that but still be lost. Somehow, Sahz equates that with having no love.

Anyway, here's the truth about the LORD LORD criers.

It goes back to Matt 16. Jesus asked his disciples whom people said He was. Peter explained the truth, and Jesus said THE FATHER him that. And then Jesus said an interesting statement: "And I say ALSO unto thee.,."

In other words, he heard from the Father, but now he had to hear FROM THE SON.

And the words of the Son were more than words of His identity. The Father showed His identity! But that wasbnb't enough. The SON spoke of the cross!

Matthew 16:18-21 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Then the infamous response by Peter took place where he resisted thoughts of the cross and death, obviously thinking of his own neck, as usual. If they'd kill Jesus, what about Peter?

Matthew 16:22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then Jesus proceeded to push the CROSS again, even moreso.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Not only is the cross important and not to be rejected, but to resist it is to lose one's soul. Resisting it, like Peter was, was saving his own neck. And Jesus said you have to lose your life, let alone die with the cross, or else lose it for eternity!

This is where Matt 7's Lord, Lord criers come into play.

Jesus said many would know His identity! Many would know what Peter came to know, even by the work of the Father! You cannot know Jesus is LORD except by the Spirit.
[indent]Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So, we know a genuine miracle occurs for someone to know Jesus is Lord. the Father has to reveal it by the Spirit. Peter experienced that.

But THAT IS NOT ENOUGH! (And you thought I never knew that, shazeep. )

Jesus HAD MORE TO SAY TO PETER after Peter knew His identity by the Spirit. Jesus spoke of DOING SOMETHING. Taking up the cross and denying self.

This is precisely what Jesus continued to say in Matt 7 as well.

Matthew 7:22-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Just like Mat 16, Jesus said HIS WORDS must be heard and obeyed, as He spoke and ADDED to the Father's word. So, first his identity is learned, THEN SECONDLY the cross is explained. THAT is how you go beyond simply knowing Him as Lord and still being lost.

The DOING is obeying the WORDS OF JESUS. So, we must go beyond knowing and calling Him Lord. We must DO SOMETHING now.

And the DOING puts us on the rock. This is what ties into Mat 16. Jesus' words that HE ALSO SAID to Peter after the Father spoke to Peter would PUT HIM ON THE ROCK and the gates of hell, like the waves, wind and sea, will not prevail against the church.

And what are those WORDS WE MUST DO? THE CROSS! Take up the cross, and deny yourself.

The reason the Lord Lord criers were called workers of iniquity, was because they were not carrying their crosses, and crosses crucify that iniquity do we do not work it any more.

So, it still points to the cross!

It's not that LOVE ONE ANOTHER is not important and vital. But it does not save anyone. the cross saves. Without love all the gifts by the name of the Lord are nothing! But LOVE has a place and it certainly is not how to be saved from sin. The cross and the cross ONLY saves from sin, and one has to consciously apply the work of that cross to be saved. That's why muslims are lost, etc. Not to rehash that argument again, but to make a point in the overall discussion.

Saved by child birth is also pointing to the cross, which you denied Shaz. But to make my point, the CROSS is the middle of everything.

And as you indicated, no greater love has any man. But that means the greatest love ever known was Jesus dying for us, so that cross would be provided for us to be baptized into his death. His love was shed abroad by having made the provision for us to be saved by the cross. And you actually miss the whole point of love, if you think people can be saved without knowing anything about the cross, since the CROSS is what HIS LOVE pointed us to!

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

The Good Samaritan had no knowledge of the cross, and furthermore it can be extrapolated from the story that he would not agree with any priest trying to call him to it. Love one another IS the doctrine described in 2John1, and the passage says so in plain English, with much supporting Scripture.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Who said the good samaritan was saved, though? Without the cross no one is saved no matter how much they love. Sorry. It's not OUR GOODNESS, Shazeep.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

The children of the world, whom John said are of the world and the love of the Father is not in them, are wiser than the children of light. That is an admonition from Christ to the church to get wisdom. That does not mean the children of the world are saved. It just means we can use some wisdom they have. Same with the good Samaritan. Nothing said he was saved.

The good Samaritan is not a lesson on how to be saved. It is a lesson on how to treat neighbours after we're saved.

That's why Peter did not preach the good Samaritan for salvation, but Christ and Him crucified, followed by how to get into that salvation..

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Where throughout the entire book of Acts did the apostles preach love one another to be saved and go to heaven so your sins are remitted by good works like loving?

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

well, i could bring up no law but love, and a bunch of other verses, but honestly i am just out of steam here, and anyone can do the same Bible search of love one another that i can. I suggest that you have come up with a law to get saved, and it is obviously used that way. One will be revealed by their fruit, in the end.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

You are not providing anything. Again, it's been said before, so it likely won't do anything, but it's still truth. The work of the cross is the means to get rid of sin, and aside from that sin is not removed no matter what degree of love there is. Loving one another does not save us because we're not saved by works. If you want to talk about love saving us, it's Jesus Christ's love that saved us and it was done through dying for us. No other love can save us. Not ours not anyone else's. You or I loving people does not save anyone.

Again, show me otherwise. We all know we are supposed to love one another. But that is not done in order to get saved. Show me the apostles teaching that as a plan of salvation. It's a matter of getting the cart before the horse.

Re: Love One Another and the Cross
 

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

THAT is the doctrine in 1 John that saves. Christ died for us.

A commandment can be one of many... don't murder. But that doesn't save you any more than love one another saves you.

By saying LAW we inadvertently says salvation is by works. Do you agree you are preaching salvation by works, since it seems so since muslims teach salvation by works, when you say this? Is salvation by works, Shazeep?

If people love their neighbours and don't know the cross nor consciously applied it to their lives as their means of salvation, are they saved, shazeep?