Dialogue with a Muslim
 

The whole chat with a Muslim yesterday in an online live discussion.

http://www.ask-a-muslim.com

S.Sayyed has joined the chat.

S.Sayyed (09:32:39) : Welcome to Edialogue.org. May peace be on you. This is an international site for Islam information here we are telling non-Muslim about Islam

Mike (09:33:00) : Hi.

S.Sayyed (09:33:04) : hello

S.Sayyed (09:33:15) : can I tell you about Islam?

Mike (09:33:54) : I am wondering what Muslims believe about the state of a Christian soul. Is a Christian lost if they only abide by the Bible? Or is such a person in need of conversion to not be considered lost?

Mike (09:34:39) : Just seeking information

S.Sayyed (09:35:51) : we Muslims believe that jesus Christ is the Mightiest messenger of God Almighty

S.Sayyed (09:36:07) : whereas Christians believe that he is God

Mike (09:36:20) : Yes but you do not believe He is the Son of God. So, if believe He is the Son of God, then how is my soul?

S.Sayyed (09:36:40) : here is the parting of ways in belief between muslims and Christians

Mike (09:36:54) : I agree.

S.Sayyed (09:36:54) : no how he can be the son of God

Mike (09:37:08) : By the way I deny trinity

Mike (09:37:30) : I just ask if I believe He is the son of God then what is the state of my soul?

S.Sayyed (09:37:32) : How can God almighty have human qualities ??

Mike (09:37:55) : God does not have human qualities.

S.Sayyed (09:38:00) : that's what

S.Sayyed (09:38:13) : then how can jesus be the son of God

Mike (09:38:33) : First, though, please answer my question. If I believe Jesus is Son of God then what is the state of my soul? Thank you.

S.Sayyed (09:38:29) : He is the messenger of God not the son

Mike (09:39:00) : If I believe Jesus is Son of God then what is the state of my osul? Thank you.

S.Sayyed (09:39:15) : you are wrong , at it according to Islam you are doing the biggest crime

Mike (09:39:34) : So that means I am lost?

S.Sayyed (09:39:52) : yes , but you can still seek the right path

Mike (09:40:08) : Okay just wanted to know your answer for that.

S.Sayyed (09:40:09) : by accepting the right path by accepting Islam

S.Sayyed (09:40:24) : so, can I tell you about Islam?

Mike (09:40:32) : Now, here is how I believe Jesus is God but also man... There is not trinity.

Mike (09:40:43) : God manifested in flesh. God did not become flesh, but manifested in it alone.

S.Sayyed (09:41:17) : ok I agree to you for the sake of conversation

Mike (09:41:37) : It's His person took upon himself human nature. But his divine nature never changed. Deity remained deity without any humanity. But God took upon Himself an additional nature

Mike (09:41:47) : It's good to discuss peacefully.

S.Sayyed (09:41:44) : but where did jesus said that he is " God "

S.Sayyed (09:41:55) : yes

Mike (09:42:10) : He said it here:

Rev 1:11-13 KJV Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; (13) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Mike (09:42:48) : Rev 1:8 KJV I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Mike (09:42:59) : Hew called himself the almighty here

Mike (09:43:52) : he also said it here:

Rev 21:6-7 KJV And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Mike (09:44:29) : See verse 7 above

S.Sayyed (09:45:00) : wait let me quote you a verse

S.Sayyed (09:46:11) : james 1 v 13 , mark 12 and 13

Mike (09:46:46) : Ok I will paste it here.

S.Sayyed (09:46:54) : in james it says that God cannot be tempted whereas in mark it's said that jesus was tempted

Mike (09:47:03) : Jas 1:13 KJV Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

S.Sayyed (09:47:16) : then how can jesus can be Omega and Alpha ?

S.Sayyed (09:47:31) : jesus be Omega and Alpha

S.Sayyed (09:47:33) : ??

Mike (09:47:43) : Yes, that is because Jesus had two natures. Divine and human. the humanity alone died and was tempted, etc. God cannot die or be tempted.

S.Sayyed (09:48:31) : how can this be possible ?

Mike (09:48:52) : Jesus said He is Alpha and Omega because God's person (one not three) manifested in flesh. And that manifestation involved no human already in existence. God manifested in flesh and that individual in flesh was fully human while His person simultaneously filled the universe as God.

S.Sayyed (09:48:56) : in one verse he is stating that he is tempted while in other he is telling he was tempted of God

Mike (09:49:23) : God was able to manifest in flesh and take on human nature, but the human nature and the divine nature cannot be confused.

Mike (09:49:31) : The humanity was tempted, Not his deity.

Mike (09:50:10) : The humanity even had to pray.

Mike (09:50:43) : Do you believe God is unable to manifest in flesh as a man with distinct human nature that is not confused with his deity? If not, why can God not do that?

S.Sayyed (09:51:05) : the verses that you are giving is it from the bible , if it is then tell me when did jesus said that this is the book of God or when did he said that Christianity is the right religion ??

Mike (09:52:13) : Yes it is.

Mike (09:52:24) : Revelation is the last book of the New Testament.

S.Sayyed (09:52:45) : In the whole "Bible" the word "Christianity" and the word Bible doesn't exist .

Mike (09:53:37) : Jesus said this:

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

THEIR WORD means the Apostles' word. John wrote Revelation and John was an apostle who also wrote the Gospel of John. Jesus put the seal of approval on all the apostles would teach us to believe. We believe on Him THROUGH their word.

Mike (09:55:09) : Do you believe Jesus was correct in John 17:20?

S.Sayyed (09:55:02) : Bible was written after jesus Christ by 40 different authors who are unknown ,

S.Sayyed (09:55:58) : the book that he preached was Injeel (Gospel)

S.Sayyed (09:56:11) : not Bible

Mike (09:56:30) : John was written by John. It was always known so. And Jesus said everyone must believe on Him through the apostles' word. I can say the Q'uran is wrong, too. But that is just empty claims. If part of JOHN is wrong, like 17:20, then what else is wrong? And what can you say about anything the New Testament said? You quoted me the New Testament yourself.

Mike (09:56:55) : John wrote the gospel of John, the three epistles of John and the book of Revelation.

Mike (09:57:24) : The gospel of John said these words:

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Mike (09:57:36) : Jesus is speaking in that verse.

S.Sayyed (09:57:45) : john 5 v 30

Mike (09:57:54) : He prayed for everyone who would believe on Him through the apostles' word.

Mike (09:58:08) : Joh 5:30 KJV I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Amen!

S.Sayyed (09:58:34) : in this verse he states that he is just the messenger and he says whatever the god makes him says

Mike (09:58:43) : The Father was IN HIM.

Joh 14:10 KJV Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

continued...

Re: Dialogue with a Mulsim
 

....continued

Mike (09:58:55) : But He says GOD IS IN HIM. That is how God was manifest in the flesh.

Mike (09:59:06) : The Father dwelled IN HIM.

Mike (09:59:23) : Col 2:9 KJV For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

S.Sayyed (09:59:21) : here it's clearly stated that jesus was a messenger not God and neither the son of God

Mike (09:59:41) : The fullness of Godhead was IN him. Messenger of God and Son of God are both true.

Mike (10:00:26) : Mar 1:9-11 KJV And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. (10) And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: (11) And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mike (10:00:40) : Mark's gospel says God told the world Jesus is His Son.

S.Sayyed (10:00:46) : but Jesus clearly states in john 5 v 30 that he is not God

S.Sayyed (10:01:04) : just a messenger

Mike (10:01:58) : His humanity is distinguished from His deity. When we read all of the words about the issue together, and not just one verse, we get the overall picture God manifested in flesh and the humanity was distinct from the deity. GOD is deity. SON is deity side by side with humanity. But the humanity was tempted and died, not the deity.

Mike (10:02:21) : God cannot die. He is eternal. The SON was not eternal.

Mike (10:02:36) : SON was a temporary manifestation of God just like the fire in the burning bush was a manifestation of God.

S.Sayyed (10:02:53) : yes then why it is said that he was crucified then if he is the God

Mike (10:03:42) : Deity did not get crucified. His manifestation IN flesh, not AS flesh, died. God was IN THAT FLESH but was not MADE INTO flesh.

Mike (10:04:20) : We agree with you that GOD was not made a man. But he took upon Himself HUMANITY like deity was in a temple. The temple was the humanity.

Mike (10:04:44) : Joh 2:19-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

S.Sayyed (10:04:40) : why he needs

S.Sayyed (10:04:56) : whats the purpose of him doing this

Mike (10:05:26) : A sacrifice had to provided that was without sin. And the only way that could be done was for God Himself to manifest in flesh as a man, sinless, to die as us. GOD did not die though.

Mike (10:05:40) : That was the purpose.

Mike (10:05:48) : Heb 2:14 KJV Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Mike (10:06:08) : God clothed Himself in humanity, but did not become humanity.

S.Sayyed (10:06:31) : As being God he should have the power to forgive why he needs to do such thing ??

Mike (10:07:37) : He did forgive, but he would be unrighteous if the penalty for sin called death was not paid. He cannot break his own rules. If the soul who sins must die, then there must be death. but nobody said an innocent could not die instead. And that is what sacrifice is all about. You agree with me about sacrifice. Islam agrees with sacrifice.

Mike (10:07:57) : Only through death being paid for could forgiveness be
granted.

S.Sayyed (10:08:25) : why he needs to die so as to achieve this , He is God Almighty the great

Mike (10:08:50) : He did not need it. We needed it. It's the only way there could be a sinless offering for sin

S.Sayyed (10:09:06) : he could simply forgive us

Mike (10:09:22) : God cannot die. But he provided a sinless human being to die as all of us, in our places, to atone for our sin. WE needed death.

S.Sayyed (10:09:19) : why he needs to die ??

Mike (10:10:01) : If he forgave us without the penalty of death paid, he would be unrighteous. Satan would rightfully accuse Him of unrighteousness. You agree we need sacrifice. Why? Why does not God just forgive without sacrifice?

S.Sayyed (10:10:01) : this is wrong it's as if you are earning and the pleasure is been taken by other is that fair

Mike (10:10:43) : It is far from earning anything. Salvation is not of works. God granted us the gift of righteousness because no one can be good enough to earn heaven.
Mike (10:11:10) : That is why the prophet said this:

Isa 53:4-7 KJV Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Mike (10:11:22) : That is what sacrifice is all about! Islam agrees with sacrifice.

Mike (10:11:49) : We a given freely his salvation but at the cost and suffering of Jesus.

S.Sayyed (10:11:47) : according to you if everyone is sinless now

Mike (10:12:08) : He loved us so much He came in flesh and died. But deity did not die.

S.Sayyed (10:12:04) : sacrifice of the creation not the creator

Mike (10:12:16) : No, only those baptized into His death are sinless.

Mike (10:12:22) : Rom 6:3 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Mike (10:12:33) : His death counts as our deaths. And we have to believe that.

Mike (10:12:42) : Yes, the creation.

Mike (10:12:52) : Not creator. Creator did not die and cannot die.

S.Sayyed (10:13:05) : creation cannot be God

S.Sayyed (10:13:17) : can a creation be similar to a God

Mike (10:13:26) : God can manifest IN CREATION. Why can He not?

Mike (10:13:41) : Man as creation can only be an image of God.

Mike (10:14:00) : If He is God, why can He not manifest in flesh while remaining God?

S.Sayyed (10:14:02) : why he needs to do that when he is God Almighty he can simply forgive

Mike (10:14:29) : He would be unrighteous if He forgot about the penalty for sin which is death.

Mike (10:14:43) : You believe in sacrifice. Why have sacrifice if He can just forgive as you ask?

Mike (10:14:52) : Sacrifice is for sin.

S.Sayyed (10:14:50) : why he needs to pay the penalty ?

Mike (10:15:00) : It pays the penalty of death.

Mike (10:15:16) : God cannot say death must be the penalty for sin and then turn around and say forget all fo that.

Mike (10:15:24) : He would contradict Himself.

Mike (10:15:43) : he paid the penalty of sin and THROUGH THAT granted forgiveness.

Mike (10:16:06) : Nice discussion. Thanks

Mike (10:16:27) : Eze 18:4 KJV Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

S.Sayyed (10:16:33) : I hope so you accept Islam in future

Mike (10:16:55) : I hope you accept Christianity, too. It is not what you think as I have shown here

Mike (10:17:10) : God did not die

S.Sayyed (10:17:08) : no you haven't

Mike (10:17:36) : You thought we believe God died.

Mike (10:17:48) : You thought we believe God was tempted.

Mike (10:18:09) : You thought Jesus did not call Himself God. But He did.

Mike (10:18:28) : You did not know there is a distinction between humanity and deity.

S.Sayyed (10:18:22) : you state in one place that jesus is God and on the other you say that he is the son of God

Mike (10:18:57) : You have to understand there is a human nature involved that God took upon Himself as well as the eternal divine nature. And the two are distinct, and not confused.

Mike (10:19:15) : Why can not God manifest in human nature? He is God!

Mike (10:20:04) : I must go to work now. Thank you for your time. I wanted to know some answers to questions I had about your opinion of Christians.

Mike (10:20:27) : I have to go now. Maybe another time. I pray for you. May the peace of God meet you!

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

You are probably on a watch-list now, for the chilrun's sake.

lol

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

Wow! That's impressive Mike, I really enjoyed reading this conversation! Praying for this man you spoke to that he will see and understand that our GOD is really great, and is not limited to our way of thinking... He can be both man and God at the same time, nothing is impossible for our God. Mankind wants to limit God by our finite understanding and reasoning. You did an excellent job with scripture backing up what you were saying. God Bless you!

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

It was wonderful to see him kindly chat and he paused for some moments as he was realizing he was misinformed.

I encourage others to go there and get in a chat and show the truth in kindness! He will be thinking for a while on that one!

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

Well done, Bro. Blume. I especially liked this response.

S.Sayyed (10:14:02) : why he needs to do that when he is God Almighty he can simply forgive

Mike (10:14:29) : He would be unrighteous if He forgot about the penalty for sin which is death.

Excellent!


Also, Syyed, says that Christianity is not mentioned in the Bible, but that is not true.

"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26

I would like to also add that we need to remember when Saul was dragging Christians out of their homes, many being murdered, there could be a Saul in this midst of jihad, and so we need to especially be prayerful that God would open eyes to the truth. Amen!

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

I have daily conversations with Muslims but most of them are belligerent and have no idea what others believe

All they know how to do is regurgitate some other Muslims argument

BTW notice for a long time he would not answer you? TYPICAL

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

Shazeep... what is your take on this? Seems I remember you saying that the Muslims believe in Jesus. Now do you understand that what they believe about Jesus is basically the same as the Mormons... that Jesus was a great messenger, but not God...?

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

well, i could give you prolly 100 Scriptures that will tell you that Jesus is not God, many of them quotes by Christ Himself. Mike entered into the convo on somewhat false premises, imo, as he believes that he has all of the truth, and needs to impart it to others; the very most foolish position to assume, i believe. The exact opposite of approaching as a servant. Why have you sought someone out, to pull a splinter from their eye? There is only one answer, and it is not the answer you want to hear.

I know this sounds harsh, but you have to admit that this is the position we are led into, from birth. "We have the truth, and need no longer search, because we are saved, and they are lost. All the proof you need is to bob your head enthusiastically at this Scripture, and you are saved. And don't be asking any uncomfortable questions, either."

He was not curious about Islam, nor was he interested in finding where he might agree with a Muslim, but where he might disagree with him. I'm pretty sure Hitler would enthusiastically agree with him, so to me it becomes a question of what ends are you trying to achieve?

You have reached a conclusion, and seek to divide yourself from the person who has not reached the same conclusion, so that you may justify that you are right, and they are wrong; you then become "saved," while they are obviously "lost." This is not love, nor is it humility. It is "typical."

Now, i do not mean this to imply that anyone is wrong in some other particulars, even Mike. But i will say that, using your model, you will be led into doing just what you have done, which is to fall into a sect that reflects your heart, just like everyone else does, and then spend the rest of your life convinced, and justifying, rather than humble, and seeking God. All done looking for truth, iow, because of course you have "found it."

And starting some new sect whenever you fall out with your leadership over some irrelevant detail. The old sect then becomes the new "lost," and you now have to get baptized "the right way." :lol

"God is the head of Christ." Exploring whether Christ is God or not God then becomes irrelevant, as anyone can see by asking "what endpoint do you seek here?" and realizing that the endpoint is division. Scripture will "prove" to anyone that you are lost, in this case. Just my humble opinion.

Re: Dialogue with a Muslim
 

If Christ is God, and you are the body of Christ, then you are God, too. Of course no one wants to say this out loud, but it is meant to be inferred, and it is reinforced by the premises stated above.