Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1618257)

That text is not in the original manuscripts.

Originally Posted by Bowas (Post 1618255)

In the following verses, it is widely taught that this verse, mandates all must be baptize or they will be damned. No real dispute there.

In the next verses, it also shows what will be signs of those that believe from casting out devils, speaking in new tongues, taking up seprents, drinking deadly things, and laying on of hands for the sick to recover.

Here is point of this post.
Using this verse as a mandate for all believers to speak in tongues, to be consistent with that interpretation, then every believer must also do the other signs.
One moght say, "Well, the believers have the ability to cast our devils etc, but do not have to as requirement as tongues are.

Thoughts? (I have my thoughts, but curious on how others address this)

Mar 16:15.. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature...
Mar 16:16.. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned...

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1618260)

This is applicable to each individual because it identifies the subject of the instruction as "he", ie the individual who responds to the Gospel either positively or negatively.




Here, the subject is "them", ie plural, and refers to general signs following the church (them that believe). This passage does not seem to be applicable to each individual believer, but rather is descriptive of the general character of the community of the saints, indicating that they would have miraculous or supernatural signs attending them (as a community). So the initial evidence doctrine is not based just upon this passage, and I would not use this passage as a proof of initial evidence doctrine for each believer, but instead would use it as a proof of the general character of the true Christian church. Thus, a church that has nobody speaking in tongues, nobody casting out demons, nobody taking up serpents, or drinking poison without ill effects, or ministering divine healing, is most likely not a church of genuine believers.

I would also point out that each of the signs listed is circumstance - dependent. Meaning, demons aren't cast out unless there are demons to be cast out, sick folks aren't healed unless there are sick folks to be healed, serpents aren't picked up unless there are serpents that need to be picked up, and so on and so forth. And this applies to speaking in tongues as well, as 1 Corinthians 12-14 shows there is a time and place for speaking in tongues, and a time and place for NOT speaking in tongues.

Initial evidence, however, is based upon Joel's prophecy, Moses' stated desire (which can be understood as a prophecy), and the inspired interpretation of Joel's prophecy as given by Peter in Acts 2.

Originally Posted by Bowas (Post 1618255)

In the following verses, it is widely taught that this verse, mandates all must be baptize or they will be damned. No real dispute there.

In the next verses, it also shows what will be signs of those that believe from casting out devils, speaking in new tongues, taking up seprents, drinking deadly things, and laying on of hands for the sick to recover.

Here is point of this post.
Using this verse as a mandate for all believers to speak in tongues, to be consistent with that interpretation, then every believer must also do the other signs.
One moght say, "Well, the believers have the ability to cast our devils etc, but do not have to as requirement as tongues are.

Thoughts? (I have my thoughts, but curious on how others address this)

Mar 16:15.. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature...
Mar 16:16.. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned...
Mar 16:17.. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;..
Mar 16:18.. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1618268)

Everyone.

This wasn’t just to the apostles, but to all who would trust in Christ.
Through water baptism in Jesus name, and infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the ability. Then miracles and sign following.

Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1618257)

That text is not in the original manuscripts.

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1618260)

This is applicable to each individual because it identifies the subject of the instruction as "he", ie the individual who responds to the Gospel either positively or negatively.




Here, the subject is "them", ie plural, and refers to general signs following the church (them that believe). This passage does not seem to be applicable to each individual believer, but rather is descriptive of the general character of the community of the saints, indicating that they would have miraculous or supernatural signs attending them (as a community). So the initial evidence doctrine is not based just upon this passage, and I would not use this passage as a proof of initial evidence doctrine for each believer, but instead would use it as a proof of the general character of the true Christian church. Thus, a church that has nobody speaking in tongues, nobody casting out demons, nobody taking up serpents, or drinking poison without ill effects, or ministering divine healing, is most likely not a church of genuine believers.

I would also point out that each of the signs listed is circumstance - dependent. Meaning, demons aren't cast out unless there are demons to be cast out, sick folks aren't healed unless there are sick folks to be healed, serpents aren't picked up unless there are serpents that need to be picked up, and so on and so forth. And this applies to speaking in tongues as well, as 1 Corinthians 12-14 shows there is a time and place for speaking in tongues, and a time and place for NOT speaking in tongues.

Initial evidence, however, is based upon Joel's prophecy, Moses' stated desire (which can be understood as a prophecy), and the inspired interpretation of Joel's prophecy as given by Peter in Acts 2.