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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
And the point I was making is that you judge trinitarians as unsaved, simply because they don't understand the Godhead the same as you. When they is not one scripture that says one must have a perfect understanding of the deity of God to be saved.
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GD, we aren't talking about individuals, we are talking about teachers of doctrines, Christology, eschatology, soteriology, etc. So, if a church whose ministry is Trinitarian they are focused on teaching that doctrine. Which is three separate individual persons who work together as one unified effort. While all three are act alone in their particular office, they never hold each other's office. Therefore making them individually gods. While a Trinitarian will refuse to accept that they do indeed believe in three separate gods, the simple logic remains. God remains at the center of the triangle, the son is god, the father is god, and the spirit is god, yet the son isn't the father, nor is the father the son. The son isn't the spirit, nor is the spirit the father. This is all pretty simple, and no mystery. These are all individuals who hold their own role, never interchange their roles, but are all individually gods. Knowing God is knowing His role in His Kingdom. If your protology is off, your eschatology will be also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer
The same goes for baptism, I have expressed my understanding in other threads, I see no need to reiterate them again. The fact is (if I understand you) you feel if one is not baptized by a oneness so called man of God with the words Jesus name quoted over them they are not saved. I disagree.
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Then logically you would also believe that any sort of baptism wasn't necessary. Concerning who baptizes who, no, you don't understand me. The evangelist Timothy was told to lay hands on no man suddenly so he wouldn't be partakers in another man's sins. This has nothing to do with baptism but with ordination. Yet, when the Pharisees came to John the Baptist's baptism they were rejected, Jesus also told His apostles in
John 20:23,
Matthew 18:18, saying "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” Also "I assure you: Whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven." This isn't talking about Catholic or Eastern Orthodox priests handing out absolution, or that Charismatics have the power to create new doctrines for the church. These verses have to do with elders and baptism. Now, does it mean that a minister forgives you of sin? Hence it is erased in heaven? No, salvation is YOU and YOUR trust in the SAVIOR. Hence the minister is the one administrating the baptism but it is all on the one being baptized who will determine the outcome. Remember Jesus called the religious leadership of His day blind leaders of the blind, but Paul in
Romans 2:19-20 that the new convert was blind, needed light, needed instruction, new converts were referred to as babies, and both Jesus and Paul teach that the elders were to bring these individuals to maturity. Now, while baptism totally relies on the one being baptized, the one who would administer baptism should understand what Phillip understood when the eunuch asked the question “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” The eunuch has enough of a Bible study that he knew one thing, he needed to be baptized, and yet, he understood that he needed to ask what was the requirement of his baptism. Phillip then tells the neophyte what he had to do, "if you trust with all your being, you may" Then the eunuch confession that he trusts that Jesus is Messiah the Son of God. Now, baptism is administered. I believe that the church is governed by elders, the apostles were mobile, like the evangelists, the apostles set things in order
Titus 1:5, and the evangelists built up on the foundation which was laid out
Ephesians 4:11-12, pastor teachers taught, and really prophets kicked tail ends
1st Samuel 16:4.
As far as your cousin's experiences in the other church I don't know your cousin. You were in a type of church like the McMinnville church? Same but different? We would have to weigh out the same, and find out the differences.
Again, you don't know the preacher, you know of the preacher, and therefore he is bad. I don't know him, but this thread sure wasn't the place to find out all things and hold to that which is good. So, pray for the bad pastor (since you are sure he is indeed bad) and hope you never get in the same cross hairs he is currently in.