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Originally Posted by good samaritan
Cause and effect. Faith causes us to repent and repentance means to change (change from a life of sinful disobedience, to a life of faithful obedience). Baptism is definitely part of that obedience, but is not the source of that obedience. Therefore, we are not saved because of baptism, but we are baptized because we are saved.
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If that is so, that we are baptized because we are already saved, then what'e the point of baptism? Symbolic act, mere gesture, for the fun of it? And how long might a "saved" person put that baptism off, before he or she runs afoul of the Lord Jesus?
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At what point do we receive forgiveness? I think it has just become a point of argument and debate. None of us will understand the full effect of that forgiveness until we are freed from this mortal body.
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Brother, this is a cop-out. You may not know or understand, but if we cannot understand the full effect of our own forgiveness until we're dead, then we cannot have any assurance of our own salvation.
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Philippians 3:12-14
12......Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13......Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14......I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
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That is not about forgiveness of sins, but about the nature of the resurrection. Since Paul had not yet died, and been raised in the Resurrection, he could not fully speak on it as though he had already experienced it. Read verses 10 and 11, and you'll see the context is clear.