[Esaias]

Part 1 -

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

...those who have never heard the Gospel, because Paul clearly says they have not the law. Any hearing the Gospel also hear the law because they have both. Come on, you've got to agree that this is true. Do you? Do those who spread the Gospel also have the law? What is your answer?

My answer is that Paul is talking about Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles have the law from God, and think they are the enlightened ones in the world, whereas the Gentiles are heathens and pagans, not circumcised, and therefore not in the Sinaitic Covenant (have not the law), and so the Jew looks down upon the Gentile. But, the Jew does not in fact do the things contained in the law, through breaking the law they dishonour God. It is not, Paul says, the "hearers of the law" who will be justified (identified as righteous), but the doers of the law. So just because Jews "have the law" doesn't in itself mean much. Meanwhile, you have Gentiles who do in fact "do the things contained in the law", even though they are uncircumcised, not in the Covenant, and thus "do not have the law" (in the sense Paul is using the phrase in the book and particularly in this chapter). Yet, Paul says their uncircumcision is irrelevant, they are considered as if they were circumcised, in Covenant with God, because "not the hearers of the law, but the DOERS of the law, shall be justified." Their actions show or demonstrate that the law has been written in their hearts, unlike the case of the disobedient Jew.

So, what does that mean? What does it mean to have the law written in the heart? This is where you go off the deep end. The Bible itself tells us the answer. The new covenant is where God writes His law in the heart. The old covenant had God writing His law on tables of stone, but the new covenant has God writing His law on the heart. Therefore, Paul is saying these Gentiles are members of the new covenant, because they have the law written in their heart, and therefore they DO the things contained in the law, unlike the disobedient Jew. That is what *I* say, allowing the Bible to interpret itself. *You* however inject your own speculations about conscience, and say the law written on the heart of these Gentiles is the conscience and its awareness of right and wrong. But you are clearly wrong, not only because the bible says no such thing whatsoever, not only because the bible identifies the law being written in the heart as the effect of the new covenant, but because in your scheme of things Jews have no conscience and heathens do! Which makes no sense.

[COLOR="black"]It is not my fault that any in AFF lacks a grasp of what Paul speaks of in Ro2. The logical conclusion of what you say in your arguments is "that all those who never hear the Gospel are going to hell", in spite of the fact that there are some who live right without hearing it. It appears that you haven't grasped what I speak of.

I HAVE grasped exactly what you speak of. I also have grasped what Paul speaks of. I just think you are completely wrong and misinterpreting Paul's words, like this:

2 Peter 3:15-16 KJV
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The logical conclusion of my argument is NOT "all who never hear of the Gospel are going to hell." See? This is where I know you aren't reading what I am posting. I mentioned at the outset that your belief system begins with certain presuppositions, certain things you believe as true before you even begin to try to "interpret" Romans 2. Among these presuppositions is the idea that "salvation is about escaping hell and going to heaven". Your worldview is about "going to heaven". This presupposition is an error, it is not what the bible teaches, it is not the subject of the Bible, and because you begin with such an error your entire train of thought is bound to wind up at the wrong place, like a train placed on the wrong set of tracks going east when the passengers want to go west.

... but you say that these have faith and are born again but without hearing the law and having received grace. Please explain how faith can grow in the heart and grace received, in those who never hear the law/Gospel.

See what you did there? It's called several things, "moving the goal posts", "straw man", "red herring", and a few other things. Most noticeably it's called EISEGESIS, inserting your own words into the text and adding to the text, saying things that were never said or written or even suggested. You already admitted that's what you were doing, and said we all should do it too, which I find abhorrent and unbecoming of anyone claiming to be apostolic. Maybe you don't claim to be apostolic, so maybe it's no big deal to you. But in *my* approach, I see that Paul never said these Gentiles "never hear(d) the Gospel". That's something you made up to support your belief system. You are confounding law and Gospel, you are saying (in this example) they are one and the same. This is something all legalists do, they confound law and Gospel, so it is no surprise you are also doing the same thing. They do not have the law (they are not circumcised, they are not part of the Sinaitic Covenant) but instead they have the law written in the heart (they are circumcised IN HEART and thus are members of the new covenant). Paul specifically identifies them as the uncircumcised in flesh but circumcised in heart, which (once again) is something that only happens in Christ.

Paul describes them as just-as-if-I'd-never sinned and if these plz God enough to be seen as just-without-having-the-law, who is anyone to say they have no faith. ...Come on over here with Paul and proclaim that some can be seen as righteous but not having heard the Word.

Come over to your bizarre heresy? Are you kidding? Surely you jest. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word. Yet you say they have faith, without hearing anything, and without any word. Earlier you had them without faith (never heard of Jesus, etc) yet pleased God. But God says "without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God." Maybe you should come over here to the Word of God?

(continued in Part 2)