Quote:
Originally Posted by donfriesen1
The words describing me as a legalist as believing in salvation by good works are said, not because they can demonstrate that I believe this as a matter of my faith but are done only to discredit the Ro2 arguments I've made, stretching my statements to an extreme conclusion which they say I believe, when I do not.
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That there is some form of religion alive-and-well the world-over testifies that most Men have this inner faith that there is a God which compels them to make a religion. Those that wish to describe me as a legalist or believing in salvation by good works alone purposely ignore the fact that I've stated things like this before. They have an unhealthy desire for me to be shown as a legalist, shown as one believing in good-works-salvation even though I've stated previously contrarily. Why they go to these lengths to discredit me as a legalist and ignoring the contrary facts of what I had previously stated is for them to disclose. That this is being done by them speaks to something of an unhealthy attitude on their part. What's the unspoken agenda that requires this ignoring?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donfriesen1
Yes, but what of those who have never heard of Jesus? If these who have never heard of Jesus are living right according to the conscience how would you say God will judge them? Is God eager to condemn these with a clear conscience to hell? I think not and that God has a reward for their righteousness. This is what Paul refers to in Ro2.12-16, the hypothetical few who have never heard.
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On the one hand you say people can be saved by "right-living" and "their righteousness" without faith in Jesus Christ, then when you get called out on it as legalism you say we are "stretching your words" and that you "believe no such thing". It is apparent that you do not THINK of yourself as a legalist. But that doesn't make it so.
You say people have some kind of belief "there is a God", and this qualifies as "faith" in the context of being "saved by faith". Yet the Bible says this about believing "there is a God":
James 2:19 KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Just because people "believe there is a God" does NOT mean they have Biblical, saving, justifying faith.
As for people being justified by "their righteousness" (as I quoted you saying, look at it! It's right there at the top of this post, in the second quotation from you!):
Romans 10:3 KJV
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Justification and salvation ARE NOT BASED upon one's OWN righteousness.
You complain about being mislabeled as a legalist who believes in salvation by works, yet that is exactly what you promote. Sorry if the truth doesn't sit well with you, but it is the plain simple truth, based entirely upon your own statements. It is not said to "discredit" anything, it is simply pointing out your own words and the logical conclusions from those words.
I'll let whoever reads this thread decide for themselves whether or not you are promoting salvation by works and self-righteousness by "some". I do not expect you to acknowledge it,
even though you previously answered "yes" to the question "are you teaching some can be saved by works" etc.