[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Some, when they come to AFF, get the snot beat out with words, as in saying they are ecclesiastical narcissists.

Not some, just you. I called you and you alone an ecclesiastical narcissist.

The term is employed to describe those who always want everyone to shut up and listen to them. No discussion is involved. They might claim that they would change their view if shown scripturally their error. But, that is usually a form of baiting individuals into gladiator school. Their minds are thoroughly made up. As is yours. Which by the way is perfectly fine. Believe as you want to believe,the only thing is, is that people are here on the forum (all three of us) not to be your echo chamber.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Some people in AFF exihibit themselves as the strong bear which should not be poked.

Actually I wasn't talking about myself. I was under the impression you were restarting a closed by the admin thread. the bear would be the admin. Not me. You poke me and others constantly in your your posts. Like answering Votivesoul in the I AM=father thread, by calling out to me in your answer to him? Own your own behavior.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

There is much more to this Ro14 story than just the attitude a wrong, strong brother may have toward a weak brother. To restrict the thought, that the many, many words of Ro14; 15.1-7 are only said for this reason, using many words when this could have been said in a few, may then miss the point Paul wants to make using many words. Many words are used to convey an important concept which is applicable to churches/Christians over the globe and for all time. He addresses the part of human nature, which when after deciding to stand for something worthwhile, will then want to stand unbending. As a Pastor said, people are extremists. They may neglect forever but when they choose not to, they take it as far as possible in the other direction.

Human nature? Don, do you believe people can get the Holy Ghost? That the Spirit of God can dwell in them and lead them? Don't you believe that through repentance, and receiving of the Holy Ghost you will get a changed nature? 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1 Corinthians 2:10-13 which states that we have received the Spirit of God, which reveals the things of God to us. Therefore it is God who brings you from the old creation to the new creation. You put off the old man, and put on the new man, Ephesians 4:22-24. Paul addressing the Roman Apostolic Church would've taken a changed nature into consideration. We don't have to make people do things. If the have the Holy Ghost they will have holiness. Paul wasn't a babysitter, or a despot. Romans 14 took into consideration the weakness of the faith of the neophytes, and therefore knew that the Holy Ghost in them would be the author and finisher of their faith Hebrews 12:2.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Someone conscientious about tending to scripture to formulate doctrine for life guidance, like those of Ro14, causing them to discipline their eating habits is far from 'weak' in all things.

Don, right here we can see you don't understand the scripture. Weak in faith is just that, weakness in belief and trust in God alone. Not in human discipline! We in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ are to help the weak brethren to seek after the Holy Ghost. Through prayer and supplication, reading the scripture as led by the Holy Ghost. We aren't to train them as we would an apprentice on a job. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body. Not me, not you. I'm not the author and finisher of anyone's faith. I'm just a brother who can only be available if needed. This isn't about some sort of human discipline of memorizing rules and regulations on meat or tofu.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

'Weak' does not describe someone who examines the Word to gain an understanding for how to conduct themselves in the fear of God. Those referred to in Ro14, do so. When challenged by someone opposing their view, they may stand to defend it, and this may result in an argument and division. Paul is reaching deeper and farther than just surface conflicts. He is not a babysitter nor a referee. He is exposing the root cause. He wants Roman Christians to know something which will be carried with them for their lives.

Whatever weakness Paul is describing in Ro14, does not cause Paul to say to any there, that they should discontinue believing contrary views.

Don, the weakness Paul is describing is told to us! It is weak in faith, which is weak in belief. In Romans 15:1 Paul tells the mature elders that they are to support the "failings" of the neophytes. In verse 2 Paul says to support the near brother and build them up. Encourage them in the Holy Ghost. Paul isn't looking to encourage Holy Vegetarianism!

Paul understands that everyone who is sincere will allow the Holy Ghost to work through them and in them. They will no longer speak like children, or act like children. That when they become full mature adults they will put childish understanding away. They no longer will use the gifts partially, but walk in them fully. As mature elders of the Body.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

The role of the preacher in Ro14 is not, Dom, as you have wrongly suggested, to tell some that for them to continue holding false doctrine is acceptable, telling them so with the hopes that the passing of time will result in a change of their views to believe the right view. Paul says the role of the preacher (he is one) is to convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

I never posted what you are saying above. Because I don't believe or teach as you are saying above. Anyone reading my words who actually know me, would say you are misrepresenting me. Because they know me. What's sad is that you throw your rebuke at me, then you quote 2 Timothy 4:2 None of what is said in 2 Timothy 4:2 is to be done with carnal human discipline in mind. It is to be applied to the sincere saint of God who has the Holy Ghost, and is being led by the Holy Ghost. Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. These words in a nutshell are exactly what Paul is saying in Romans. The main word Timothy is to focus on is longsuffering. Which is being patient with those he is convincing, rebuking, exhorting, and teaching. The Holy Ghost is the main power to make anything in that list even work. If the strong brother, and weak brother don't allow the Holy Ghost to work charity through them. Then absolutely zero will happen. Listen, you may shut someone up after you beat them up in the church office. They may go out and be sitting down physically, but in their heart they're standing up. If the Holy Ghost doesn't push the buttons and blow the whistles, you will have nothing but an ecclesiastical side show.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Giving instruction in Ro14 for the correct view which all should hold would resolve conflicts about which view is correct. Paul does not here do this. Saying he doesn't do so to avoid elevating conflicts in the Rome church, would say he holds intimate knowledge of the individuals in conflict, which could only be possible had he lived with them.

Paul also says to Timothy, a preacher, about those who are desiring to be teachers of the law (the law is the source of the two topics which Paul references in Ro14) that Timothy should charge some that they teach no other doctrine. He does not tell Timothy to put on hold the idea of waiting to see if their views will correct. Address the issue, is his message.

Paul is telling Timothy the evangelist to deal with individuals who are elders. They aren't weak brethren as in new converts. Those who Timothy was to deal with aren't labeled as weak in the faith. Don, you are all over the place.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

If Paul believes that God always communicates doctrine with perfect clarity, then anyone believing in something other than that which this clarity brings, believes in false doctrine. But Paul tells those Romans who believe contrary things about holy days and foods, that all are OK. He would thus be condoning the holding of false doctrine in either one or all. Those with opposing views can't all be right.

Don, you are not understanding what is happening in Romans 14. Paul is dealing with new converts and elders. New converts need their faith strengthened so they aren't worried about where the meat is coming from. Or if they are breaking the sabbath if they help someone get their oxen out of a ditch. Paul isn't dealing with with elders desiring to be teachers of the Law.
In Romans he is dealing with the same thing he dealt with over in Corinth. Weak brethren Romans 14, and 1 Corinthians 8:10. Elders needed to watch what they were doing in order not to not cause a young new convert to stumble.

Paul wouldn't of ever advocated to Timothy to have weak faith elders to teach anything, let alone the Law of Moses. Don do you think your a weaker brother because you hold a third view from Pastor Doe, and the Organization?