[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Well, I do try to be. Likewise, I do believe you have also conducted yourself as a gentlemen. Just because we disagree does not mean we cannot hold a civil, ongoing conversation. I appreciate your kindness.

I deal with everyone on a case to case basis. I appreciate that you do the same.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

Yes, women are just as important inside the body as we are as men.

Agreed, women are just as important just holding specific roles. The Bible teaches from Genesis to Revelation that the Church has male headship, while the New Jerusalem is the mother of us all. Maleship leads and defends, while womanhood nurtures. In the New Testament we see male leadership. Epistles written entirely by men.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

What bothers me about the churches I've been in or conversations I've held with men that don't believe women should preach, is how they view their women as a whole.

That's too bad. No matter what my personal experiences may be among "churches" I still need to stick with book, chapter, and verse. 45,000 denominations in the United States and who knows how many offshoots have evolved from those denominations. People are people, and individuals with their own thoughts and feelings run those many groups. The ecclesiastical pendulum swings both ways. There was an old pastor in Miami name of William Henry Dunn, who said the road is narrow, and both sides have a ditch. We are told in scripture to look well to our going Proverbs 4:25-27. Yet, I wasn't there when you had these experiences or conversations. So, I would need clear explanation to better judge them.

I don't create my theology from my experiences. Just as we shouldn't formulate our eschatology because what we see in a newspaper. If I see some individual calling a sister up to the pulpit to tell her where she lost her car keys, the first initial of her cat's name, and her home address? I'm not going to incorporate that into my theology. Or uphold it as Biblical. If I'm visiting a church and they are all building bomb shelters in Miami Beach, because they believe Donald Trump is the Antichrist. I won't be considering all that as a Bible example. The Bible is very clear, and more than able to show us the way. Yet, if we allow cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias to skew our vision of the Word of God. Then our experiences will justify whatever doctrine we hold as our pet. Therefore scripture that contradicts a long held group belief, the resulting discomfort (dissonance) often causes people to rationalize or even completely ignore the scriptures, or to become more strident in their inaccurate position. All to protect their mental image of themselves within their particular church group. It is the same on both sides, the women preacher camp, and the no woman preacher camp. We can have very far extremes on both sides. Yet, none of these camps are a monolith for everyone who happens to believe in women preachers or who doesn't believe in women preachers.

Everything is on a case to case basis. Therefore you shouldn't use a bad example to justify why you believe what you believe. Every religion should be judged by its best. So, in the same way we should examine our Apostolic brethren far better with their varying views. We should look for those Apostolic men and women, who are the cream of the crop, the very best example who hold different views from us. What I mean is their teaching concerning female preachers and no female preachers. They should be able to articulate their beliefs with scripture, and explain those scriptures logically.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I've been in churches where the women were second-class citizens, who weren't permitted to speak, let alone pray for anyone, and who were literally scared to death to be used by God.

This is where we use a confirmation bias. You are using a horrible example, and hoping it will win an argument. It's like saying everyone in the "No Women Preacher" group are hanging around smoking cigarettes, in tank top t-shirts, drinking beer, and screaming at their abused women to fix them some supper?

Like I said, we can find extremes on both sides, yet, these groups have regular rank and file people running the show. Yet, we shouldn't just judge with carnal judgement, but with righteous judgement, with the scriptures.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

That isn't of God. No matter how we slice it.

Lots of things that go on around us aren't of God, no matter how you slice it. That's why we take it to the Book, no matter whose side you are on. We examine it with the Book.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I know a sister whose in her 50s who belongs to a church where women aren't permitted to do anything without the approval of the leadership and without their husband leading them into it. This sister came to our church and the Holy Ghost wanted to use her to give a message in tongues to the church. She was so bound by what this church has drilled into her head. Despite continuing pleas from our church leadership for her to obey the Holy Ghost, she couldn't erase that which she has sat under for so long. She wept because she felt like she had disobeyed God by even appearing as if she was stepping outside of her boundaries as a women in the service.

Well, I would need quite a bit of information concerning this example. You introduce the sister, as belonging to another church? Then you let us know she visited your church. This would make her a visitor? She would just be their temporarily, then later leave to return to her own church family? Could you please straighten that out for me? Is that what is happening? Also How'd the leadership know the Holy Ghost wanted her to give a message in tongues? When couples or anyone for that matter come to your church to visit, just passing through. Do they have to run a doctrinal gauntlet?

I can understand getting an ecclesiastical flamethrower launched at me from the pulpit, for a good 30 minutes. For the simple reason the preacher (male or female) knows I don't believe in their particular doctrine. That's cool with me, I'm more than happy to discuss it when they climb down and invite me to lunch. There are also hit and runs, where you get doctrinally smacked in the teeth, and when it's all over, there will be no one to one Bible study. I'm also good with that, because some people are chicken. They can put you on full blast from a platform, in front of their peeps. But aren't willing to discuss how you are wrong over some nice smoked boudin, and gumbo, with hot links. Oh, and a nice big hunk of red velvet cake! I digress, what were we talking about?

Yeah, visitors from other churches getting pushed to do something outside of what they were taught by their church elders.

Me personally, I'm not looking to traumatize anyone, then sending them back to their church family. So, they can tell their elders and church family how I burned them with ecclesiastical cigarettes for an hour? In preaching we all have made mistakes, we all have dropped the watermelon. As time goes on we should learn from our mistakes which the Holy Ghost points out to us. Where seasoned elder men and women give us some good advice. Advice which is Biblical, and logical. So, some poor trembling sister doesn't return to her church family saying she was swarmed to do something she was never taught. Apostolic visitors are just that "visitors." They are already church people, who (as you stated) belong to another church. Are we going to convert them to the way we believe? Or to see our vision of Apostolic One God Pentecost which we feel is correct? Or are we looking to fish in another church's fish tank? I'm not saying you and your people are doing that. I'm saying, what benefit is it for anyone to try to convert an apostolic visitor or pressure another apostolic from another church? They must eventually return to their church family home. Who will thoroughly, and completely remove anything that was said to them. Especially if they had a bad experience.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I'm a little unsure what you mean by Trinitarian Pentecostals and Charismatics having similar testimonies. Of course, I know they could tell similar stories, but I'm not making the connection, unless that connection is that what they say and what I've said is somehow "false" because they preach a triune God and I say women can preach.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, and forgive me if I've made any assumptions.

Yes, everyone in Christendom has some amazing testimonies. I brought up Trinitarians and Charismatics not to say what you said was false. But, to simply point out, just because these different groups can raise the dead, or feed the 5,000. Doesn't mean their doctrines are Biblical. I have wonderful testimonies throughout my time in and before I even came to the Apostolic faith. All attributed to God's power. yet, even though these events will inspire faith, and bring tears to the eyes with joy. They still don't vindicate our doctrinal standings. They prove that God is Good, that He will bless who He will bless. What we believe doctrinally must be placed under the microscope of the God's Word. Not our good thoughts and warm feelings.

Originally Posted by Bro Flame

I do certainly appreciate all the well wishes. The same to you and yours.

Thank you so very much for the good discussion. The Lord bless you and your family immensely.