[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I no longer have Weisser's, Arnold's or Chalfant's books available to me. All three writers are known for having published various timelines where they purported to show the unbroken existence of the "water/Spirit" or "3 Stepper Plan." Of the three I have met Arnold and Chalfant.

I do remember one occasion at a Symposium on Oneness Pentecostalism where Chalfant was challenged about his writings and he responded with real earnest that he was deliberately following a strategy that he called "extrapolation." That is, he felt that the standard historical sources were unreliable even in their description of the "heretics" own message. Therefore, using Matthew 16:18 as his guide he assumed that anyone being persecuted by religious authorities throughout history must have been practicing Acts 2:38 salvation.

This kind of thinking leads to our people making statements like the following:

"The slander and religionists smearing of the ApostolicChurch is the way investigators were able to discover the true church during each century. All that researchers had to do was look at those groups that the Catholic Church were against. Who and what were these HERETICS? They were surprised to find that almost all of them were Jesus Name Pentecostals. These so called Heretics used many organizational names, throughout the centuries as we will discover in this study. Such names as Donatist, Samosatene, Celtic Christianity, Albigensians, Anabaptist, Cathari[,] Mani, Noetus, Priscillianism, Sabellians, are just a few of the Jesus Name Organizations that have been alive and well since the Day of Pentecost."

The last three groups or individuals did appear to practice a "Oneness" type of theology, but their soteriology probably differed. But sprinkling them in among the others is just bad scholarship. They don't belong together, they're entirely different types of beliefs.

We in fact have the actual documents created by many of these groups. Donatist, Albigensians (whose elite were called the Cathari) and Anabaptists. They clearly did not identify themselves with "Sabellianism" or any such teachings. The Albigensians were Gnostic dualists. They rejected the Trinity because they felt that the god who created the material world was evil. That was why Jesus Christ was "manifest" (not born). The immaterial Christ (sort of like 'heavenly flesh') prepared a way for those with the hidden knowledge (Gr. gnosis) to escape the designs of the "evil" Jehovah. This is clearly Gnosticism and not anything even close to Oneness theology.

Daniel A has asked for BobDylan and me to join the discussion here. I'm not a church historian. But there are some questions we have asked a Trinitarian who has yet to respond. I'd be interested in yours and Adino's imput since your both seem knowledgable and articulate.

1. Who and where was the "real church" from 500AD to 1500AD?

2. When, where, and by whom was the trinitarian theory of the Godhead established as the official dogma of the "real church"?

3. What is the earliest manuscript that indicates a fully developed "trinity" theory-doctine of the Godhead?

4. What did the early post apostolic church teach on salvation?

5. Can you find your own personal beliefs on salvation and Oneness in history between the times posted in question 1?