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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #1  
Old 01-03-2008, 07:07 AM
camp4u
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Real & Living Relationship

Real And Living Relationship

I was talking over the phone with a friend of mine today and the issue of financial accountability in the ministry came up somewhere in the discussion. One of the issues concerning this topic that came up is ministers who use the American Church System to prosper, become wealthy and live like kings among the people that they lead. The exact statement that he made was “they live extravagant lifestyles, while some of their key members and supporters live at the poverty level and in some cases are on welfare.”

Well you know me, that pressed the preach button in me and I just had to add more fuel to an already blazing fire. So I blew on some of the things that he was saying. While I was addressing some of these issues, I found myself being pulled in another direction by the one who possesses absolute veto power. I was not being convicted by Holy Spirit. I was not being corrected by Holy Spirit. No, it was something different. I am not sure what to call it; but I was talking about one thing and thinking about another at the same time.

It was then that it all became clear to me. In the middle of the conversation that I was having with this brother, I heard something. I am not going to tell you what I said to him about his concern; but I am going to tell you that at the end of what I said to him about his concern I had to explain to him that what I just said was according to that system of government. It was then that it dawned on me that something had happened inside of me. What had happened inside of me is that the institutional church system is no longer a part of my life. I don’t believe that way anymore. I have a new and different perspective now. I made the turn and shift has occurred, therefore I am operating by a new paradigm today. You see many of us have had our fill of man-made religion and even meeting for the purpose of fulfilling some religious criterion.

Before I go any further, let me first say that I love the Ekklesia and the fellowship of the brotherhood; but I despise organized religion and all that it represents with a purple passion. I believe that Christianity has done more to divide and alienate the body of Messiah from the true purpose of Yahweh than any other religion on earth.

Now, before you start spitting at your monitor or throwing your mouse across the room let me finish. Churchianity and religion have done more harm than good in America because we have become dull of hearing and have forsaken our habitation in Him.

We have become a nation of religious bigots and cynical skeptics. I have never lived in a time when the people of this country are more confused and divided than they are today. It amazes me how President Bush or his administration can get anything accomplished for this nation. The spiritual pulse of America is weak and fading. The vital signs of America are all but flat lining. The political system is brain dead and the legal system corrupt.

It is time for reformation. It is time to find ourselves and one another in Him again. I believe that the apathy, indifference and lawlessness that we all experience on a daily basis are primarily related to a lack of real passion for the purpose of Yahweh. And we are not living our lives out of a repentant heart. Instead, we just keep living day by day as if nothing is going to change about the economy or our lives.

By now, some are saying, “Who am I? There is really nothing that I can do about the condition or state of the nation.” I beg to differ with anyone that believes that there is nothing that we can do to make the state and condition of our life in this country better. I do not believe that this governmental system can or will be reformed; but I do believe that the hearts of men and women everywhere can and will change. John F. Kennedy once said; “Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country.” When we accept the responsibility to become all that we are supposed to be in life, the people of this country will take notice, respond accordingly and change will come that will reverberate around the world. If you can hear it, as it goes in this country, so it goes in Israel and the other countries with which we are allied. Have you seen the news lately?
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  #2  
Old 01-03-2008, 07:08 AM
camp4u
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Real & Living Relationship - Part Two

Terrorists worldwide are making their move right now because they know that we are weak, vulnerable and unresolved. They think that the people of this country do not have the heart to do what is necessary to maintain freedom and keep their way of life. They do not believe that we have what it takes to help anybody else secure their rights and freedom. They believe that if they can chip away at our resolve long enough, that we will fold, quit, cut our losses and come limping home.

Now this should cause your blood pressure to rise; and I can already hear some of the people with which I fellowship. Here he goes again talking about politics, terrorism and war. Well, my response to that attitude concerning our way of life and freedom is someone better be concerned enough to speak up and to challenge believers everywhere to rise up in prayer, come together in prayer and from the foundation of prayer develop a proactive approach to ending the hostilities and for bringing our sons and daughters back home in one piece. 
From the first century church until now we have operated covertly, underground and in hiding for the most part. From the early church to all that it has become today we have tolerated state and federal government intrusion and interference concerning our freedom to worship Yahweh as the only true and living Elohim. The framers of the constitution, the declaration of independence and our forefathers never intended for the issue to be about the freedom of religion –vs- the freedom from religion. I am sure that they could not have foreseen the hodgepodge of multi-cultural, religious diversity and for sure would not be able to fathom the degree to which we have become divided over these issues.

The Roman Empire did not fall because believers were not praying, fasting and preaching the Gospel. It fell because the Caesars, Governors, Politicians and People of that nation failed to hear and obey the voice of the one who was sent to them with a message for the heart of the Father. And instead of receiving Yahshua the Messiah and the message that He brought to them, they conspired together with the religious leaders of that time to kill the Prince of Life on the impaling post in an attempt to silence His voice, and thereby stop the spread of the Glory fire that like a firestorm was sweeping out of control through their nation. Yahshua the Messiah was more threatening and intimidating to them and their way of life than all of the religious systems combined. The religious systems of that era were nothing more than closely guarded prisoners of their own compromise. The Roman government persecuted and killed Yahshua’s followers. They imprisoned, tortured and banished His Apostles. And finally in 70 A.D. fell and now lay in ruin. It has been said that Nero is the man who torched Rome and then blamed the act of arson on our brothers and sisters.

Acts 3:13-15 The Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, glorified His Servant Yahshua, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and killed the Prince of life, whom Yahweh raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of Yahweh which are in Judea in Messiah Yahshua. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15who killed both the Sovereign Yahshua and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please Yahweh and are contrary to all men, 16forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Now, you need to reflect long enough to come to your own conclusion about the parallel between the fall of the Roman Empire and what could happen with the United States of America. If we, as the people of Yahweh, do not rise up and become all that He has purposed, I fear that the end our way of life and all we hold dear is in sight.

With all that said, I still love this country, the great state of Tennessee and my freedom. And while the American Church System cannot shoulder the blame alone, it is a big part of the problem. We are supposed to be the bastions of truth and the emissaries of Yahweh’s love and grace; but instead we have become mindless automatons and drones of a failing system. We have allowed ourselves to be cordoned of and held captive in Babylon by our own compromise and because we do not want to create any waves.

That brings me back to my original thought and that which I was thinking while I was talking to my friend on the phone. The only way that we will ever be safe and secure again is through real and living relationship. No matter where you stand on some of the issues that I have raised with this article you must admit that together we are stronger and able to accomplish more than if we are the voice of one crying in the wilderness. Even if we all decide that the wilderness is the best place to be and we all begin to cry out in unison “come out from among her and be you separate”, we still will not live long enough to see any lasting change. If we all march on DC in a peaceful demonstration and all write our congress person today it will only serve to temporarily generate thought in another direction.

This thing is a machine that is controlled by forces and people that are more powerful that anything that you have ever encountered in this world. If you can hear it, we must become overt and in your face with the reality of who Yahweh is in the way we live our lives and in the things in which we place value and importance. We need to rise up, shake ourselves and say NO to our next dose of spiritual valium. We need to develop an “I’m Not Going To Take It Anymore” heart and mentality. We need to “Come Together” now and start making people uncomfortable again, instead of being the whipping post of most primetime television shows and the laughing stock of most late night comedians. We need to be on the front page of every newspaper in this country because of the impact that we are making in this country. From time to time the media does get it right. So let’s get together and give them something that they cannot refute or deny as being of Heavenly origin and Kingdom in purpose.
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2008, 02:32 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Well I concur that the systemite Church has not been part of my life for many years. But I want to know what is your direction? Its easy to criticize the Church system. You say we need reformation. Agreed. But reformation to what? What do you offer the body of the Messiah?
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  #4  
Old 01-03-2008, 03:02 PM
camp4u
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The Body Of Messiah

Hey Michael:

I was unable to post the complete article; but I will when I get the time; but in short we are going to have to allow Him to reform the structure of our hearts concerning the House that He is building and move away from the babylonian pattern and ministry of Saul. More later. We are going to become relational and powerful again.
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  #5  
Old 01-03-2008, 03:51 PM
camp4u
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Real & Living Relationship

Terrorists worldwide are making their move right now because they know that we are weak, vulnerable and unresolved. They think that the people of this country do not have the heart to do what is necessary to maintain freedom and keep their way of life. They do not believe that we have what it takes to help anybody else secure their rights and freedom. They believe that if they can chip away at our resolve long enough, that we will fold, quit, cut our losses and come limping home.

Now this should cause your blood pressure to rise; and I can already hear some of the people with which I fellowship. Here he goes again talking about politics, terrorism and war. Well, my response to that attitude concerning our way of life and freedom is someone better be concerned enough to speak up and to challenge believers everywhere to rise up in prayer, come together in prayer and from the foundation of prayer develop a proactive approach to ending the hostilities and for bringing our sons and daughters back home in one piece.

From the first century church until now we have operated covertly, underground and in hiding for the most part. From the early church to all that it has become today we have tolerated state and federal government intrusion and interference concerning our freedom to worship Yahweh as the only true and living Elohim. The framers of the constitution, the declaration of independence and our forefathers never intended for the issue to be about the freedom of religion –vs- the freedom from religion. I am sure that they could not have foreseen the hodgepodge of multi-cultural, religious diversity and for sure would not be able to fathom the degree to which we have become divided over these issues.

The Roman Empire did not fall because believers were not praying, fasting and preaching the Gospel. It fell because the Caesars, Governors, Politicians and People of that nation failed to hear and obey the voice of the one who was sent to them with a message for the heart of the Father. And instead of receiving Yahshua the Messiah and the message that He brought to them, they conspired together with the religious leaders of that time to kill the Prince of Life on the impaling post in an attempt to silence His voice, and thereby stop the spread of the Glory fire that like a firestorm was sweeping out of control through their nation. Yahshua the Messiah was more threatening and intimidating to them and their way of life than all of the religious systems combined. The religious systems of that era were nothing more than closely guarded prisoners of their own compromise. The Roman government persecuted and killed Yahshua’s followers. They imprisoned, tortured and banished His Apostles. And finally in 70 A.D. fell and now lay in ruin. It has been said that Nero is the man who torched Rome and then blamed the act of arson on our brothers and sisters.

Acts 3:13-15 The Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, glorified His Servant Yahshua, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15and killed the Prince of life, whom Yahweh raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of Yahweh which are in Judea in Messiah Yahshua. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15who killed both the Sovereign Yahshua and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please Yahweh and are contrary to all men, 16forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Now, you need to reflect long enough to come to your own conclusion about the parallel between the fall of the Roman Empire and what could happen with the United States of America. If we, as the people of Yahweh, do not rise up and become all that He has purposed, I fear that the end our way of life and all we hold dear is in sight.

With all that said, I still love this country, the great state of Tennessee and my freedom. And while the American Church System cannot shoulder the blame alone, it is a big part of the problem. We are supposed to be the bastions of truth and the emissaries of Yahweh’s love and grace; but instead we have become mindless automatons and drones of a failing system. We have allowed ourselves to be cordoned of and held captive in Babylon by our own compromise and because we do not want to create any waves.

That brings me back to my original thought and that which I was thinking while I was talking to my friend on the phone. The only way that we will ever be safe and secure again is through real and living relationship. No matter where you stand on some of the issues that I have raised with this article you must admit that together we are stronger and able to accomplish more than if we are the voice of one crying in the wilderness. Even if we all decide that the wilderness is the best place to be and we all begin to cry out in unison “come out from among her and be you separate”, we still will not live long enough to see any lasting change. If we all march on DC in a peaceful demonstration and all write our congress person today it will only serve to temporarily generate thought in another direction.
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  #6  
Old 01-05-2008, 08:06 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Although I enjoy the relative peace and prosperity we have in America I dont think we should hold tightly to it. The Church itself is Gods nation. Its in becoming to nationalistic the Church assimilates its culture.

A real revival/restoration is certainly in order for the Church. And the more souls we win the better. But can America EVER be converted to obedience to Yeshua the Messiah? Even his own nation according to the flesh (Judea) after being offered the Messiah by and large rejected him and his doctrine.

It is part of our mission to bring Americans into the Church. When they come in they are expected to change their ways. More often than not they are now bringing their ways to the Churches who seem willing to embrace them.

As far as the terrorists I see that as Islam restoration. The goal is convert the nations or destroy them. It could well be that YAH will use them to punish America for her wickedness.

What Im looking forward to is the end time move of overcomers being produced. They will be hated of all men. The Church will be fully in allegiance with Yeshua and he will manifest himself in great power and glory.

I long for the doctrinal order that is to come and the heart obedience born out of love for the Messiah. The current chaos will continue until we see this.
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