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Old 08-22-2011, 05:53 AM
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Who are we accountable to part II

Who are we accountable to part II


Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

In this setting two of the disciples came asking to have places at the right and left hand of Jesus in his kingdom, places of authority. Jesus response to them was this, “ And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant”.

Jesus used the example of the kings and princes of the Gentiles that exercise dominion over their subjects as rulers. He said this shall not be the way among them. Yet in almost all Christendom we see this type of tyranny, where the pastor holds a place of dominion over the rest of the saints. To further this type of tyranny these pastors many times do not have anyone that holds them accountable . If they do it is almost always someone even higher in authority over them, not their peers.
Further the accountability goes down in number the higher it goes. Our churches are run like a business or dictatorship rather than the way we are instructed to be. In the last 1000 years we have been so ingrained with the idea put out by the RCC that we must have someone higher than us that we cannot see that this is never the intent of God from the beginning.
I do not see the role of accountability to go up in the kingdom of God but rather to go side ways. We have too long set our rules of accountability upon the worlds view. That the few rule the many yet we have one Lord that is Jesus. One higher authority that is God.

I have heard the phrase so many times “If we are not held accountable, or submit to authority then everyone would do their own thing, that we must have authority over us”. This is boulder-dash.

As Paul teaches us in Ephesians husbands are accountable to Christ and their wife, wife and children are accountable to the husband, no one is a dictator. Rather we are to be subject one to another.

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Note that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church (body of Christ). As Jesus taught he came as a servant to all. Even to the laying down of his life for the church.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


The church is subject to Christ not to a pastor who is then subject to Christ. Earlier in Ephesians Paul taught that God gave gifts to the church. These gifts were for the equipping, perfecting, of the saints to do their own ministerial work and to edify the body of Christ. Not as many have taught that they the gifts of God were placed in the body to oversee and judge the rest of the saints and straighten them out as they felt led to do by their own interpretation of scripture.

God did not chose them as his mouth piece, he speaks to the individual through his spirit.
He put the gifts in the church to edify his body, to give the whole body the ability to work as ministers in the body.

I am surprised when I have taken a closer look at the hierarchy of the OT, when Israel took possession of the land, God was their king no one else.


I have heard it preached and taught that they had the judges to rule over them, this was only in times when they had turned from God and God would send them a leader to bring them back to him. And then to lead them against their enemy's.

Then they say that then the people had the prophets, I say please show me where these men took authority over the people in the dictatorship role many so called spiritual leaders do today.

Let me try and draw you a picture, we have a group of several thousand people, even several hundred thousand people, living by the commandments of God, they are divided by family units, starting by tribe, each tribe again consisting of several thousands of people. Each of these tribes are then broken down to the individual family groups of maybe, father, mother, 10+ children, their wives and children and maybe even another generation after that. This is the way the family units were broken down after Israel came out of Egypt. Twelve families went in twelve tribes came out.


Now let me take this a couple of steps farther, as I have heard the priest were given the job of keeping the rest of the children in line with the commandments of God. Where do we get this line of reasoning? Could it be from Leviticus where God commits the teaching of the laws he gave to Moses to the children of Aaron?

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Lev 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.


The question is not if this is commanded of them but rather if this is the primary duty given to the Aaron and his sons as part of being the priest or whether it was a one time command?

Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

This is the direct commandment given by God later when they were going to enter the promised land. Note the command is directed to the Parents not the priest. We find this same command given to the parents again in Deut. 11:19

From this time until the kings, God dwelt with the individual family, only when there was a greater dispute than could be solved within the family unit did the people go to the the priest and judge in the land. Deut. 17. The point is very clear should one study this out without the influence of man made traditions. God never intended his children to be under the dictates of a spiritual leader.

I leave this part with two more comments, Jesus gave us the promise of the holy ghost which was to come to each and every one of us after the ascension. In this promise he is explicit in saying that his spirit when it came would teach us and bring to our remembrance those things which he spoke of. He even further told us that when we came against others that did not believe that the spirit would give us words to say. The point is each and every one of us that has the spirit of God has the ability to hear from God without the outside influence of a higher earthly authority.

Finally the writer of Hebrews quotes OT prophecy found in Ezekiel when he says in Heb 8, “ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.”

Many will tell you this has not come to pass that it will be in the future. I say read the chapter Jesus is the high priest and this is the time when we are under the new covenant the time when God speaks directly to the individual.

If this were not the case then Christ died in vain, and we are not better off than they were in the OT times.
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:20 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

I would say we are accountable to God, his Holy Spirit and his Word teaching and convicting us.

I would say we are accountable to the men and women of God that he places in our lives to perfect us. But we're to follow them only as they follow Christ.
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:27 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
I would say we are accountable to God, his Holy Spirit and his Word teaching and convicting us.

I would say we are accountable to the men and women of God that he places in our lives to perfect us. But we're to follow them only as they follow Christ.
Amanah thank you for your imput, don't feel as if I am putting you down or arguing, but I am spring boarding off of your statement to open up other lines of thought.

We are accountable to one another, how can one be accountable to God and men/women at the same time? Either we learn from the spirit of God as we study his word. Or we are subject to man as they tell us what they think the word of God says. To follow as they follow Christ means we must think for ourselves. Our elder are there to give us direction not dictate or perfect what they think if right or wrong.

Where do you see in scripture that God places people in our lives to perfect us? Ephesians 4 states that God gave gifts to the church not people in particular. within each group as needed these gifts come to the surface to equip (perfect) us to do OUR work of ministry. not for the work of the ministry.

There is no way that one man standing behind a pulpit trying to perfect all what he calls saints edifies the body of Christ. All that does is edify the man behind the pulpit.

In light of Jesus teaching in the verses above I have a hard time seeing how people can see the form of authority found in most Christian churches to be bible. It is much like Jesus scolding the pharises as whitened sepulchres but they did not recognize what they were doing wrong. We have been so developed into our traditions that when faced with something different that might be truth we can't see it.
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:35 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

The body of Christ working together is a beautiful thing, the praise leader and the choir leading us into worship. The gifts of the Spirit operating in the service: tongues and interpretations, gifts of healing, prophecy, wisdom. An annointed preacher bringing a message. The Spirit working in the service to convict/change lives. The flow of the Spirit throughout the body of Christ. It's beautiful, why wouldn't you want it?

If this is not happening, and there is a person in the pupit who is just there to be a lord over God's inheritance, then that is a perversion of what is supposed to be.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:02 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

The Bible does speak about submitting to one another....
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Old 08-22-2011, 09:12 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

@Godsdrummer, is it the exercise of authority or the seizing of preeminence that is at the heart of your chafing? I'm not trying to pick a fight, only trying to pinpoint where the actual issue originates from. For me, it is difficult to listen (and absorb what is taught) from someone who stands in the place that is not their place; conversely, when someone ministers from the place where God has set them, the anointing is clear and there is no contention.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
Where do you see in scripture that God places people in our lives to perfect us? Ephesians 4 states that God gave gifts to the church not people in particular. within each group as needed these gifts come to the surface to equip (perfect) us to do OUR work of ministry. not for the work of the ministry.
You have always stuck me as a student of the Word, knowing your scriptures. Here to you already know the answer. This is indeed talking about people called into those roles (apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers). They are called from within the body, but not all of the body can be placed into these roles.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
There is no way that one man standing behind a pulpit trying to perfect all what he calls saints edifies the body of Christ. All that does is edify the man behind the pulpit.

In light of Jesus teaching in the verses above I have a hard time seeing how people can see the form of authority found in most Christian churches to be bible. It is much like Jesus scolding the pharises as whitened sepulchres but they did not recognize what they were doing wrong. We have been so developed into our traditions that when faced with something different that might be truth we can't see it.
Again, is the issue exercise of authority or the seizing of preeminence?

Paul and Peter use terms like "rule" and "oversight", speaking clearly of a hierarchy of elders. Not a hierarchy of dominion, but a structure to teach, to cultivate, and to create an environment in which saints can grow, mature, flourish, and eventually become elders themselves.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.



Contrasting with:

3 John 9-10
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Last edited by HRea; 08-22-2011 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:16 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

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Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
The Bible does speak about submitting to one another....
To work as a body, there has to be give and take with each other.

I don't think anyone is accountable to God for us, but I do believe it is best if we find a mentor, or someone that we respect spiritually, that we can be accountable to. I believe the choice of mentor is ours to make for ourselves. I don't believe God puts people in our life that we MUST submit to that we don't respect!

p.s. I noticed that to post this thought, I had to first click "submit!" ha!
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:08 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

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Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway View Post
To work as a body, there has to be give and take with each other.

I don't think anyone is accountable to God for us, but I do believe it is best if we find a mentor, or someone that we respect spiritually, that we can be accountable to. I believe the choice of mentor is ours to make for ourselves. I don't believe God puts people in our life that we MUST submit to that we don't respect!

p.s. I noticed that to post this thought, I had to first click "submit!" ha!
Trust me when I say we are to be accountable to one another, (submit one to another), but to use the word Hrea uses preeminence where one takes on themselves a postion of authority not directed by God is where we get off. God did not set one man over the rest of the church of God to be his primary mouth peice from my point of view anyway.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:41 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

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Originally Posted by HRea View Post
@Godsdrummer, is it the exercise of authority or the seizing of preeminence that is at the heart of your chafing? I'm not trying to pick a fight, only trying to pinpoint where the actual issue originates from. For me, it is difficult to listen (and absorb what is taught) from someone who stands in the place that is not their place; conversely, when someone ministers from the place where God has set them, the anointing is clear and there is no contention.

Quote:
From my point of view the exercise of authority and seizing preeminence are one and the same thing. As for when on ministers from a anointing the anointing is clear and there is no contention. But just because someone ministers with anointing from a certain point once does not put them into an official office per se.

You have always stuck me as a student of the Word, knowing your scriptures. Here to you already know the answer. This is indeed talking about people called into those roles (apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers). They are called from within the body, but not all of the body can be placed into these roles.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


Funny how we put words into scripture that are not there, above you quoted from Ephesians 4, calling them roles or offices, but Ephesians is explicate to tell us they were gifts given to the body, not offices. Eph 4:8 further they were given to equip, and edify the body to do the work of ministry (ie each one of us has a ministry.

Quote:
But I Cor. 12 is speaking of the beginnings of a work where God calls or sets (some) in the church. Watch this now. Apostles were from my point of view the missionarys of our day. God places a call on thier lives to go take the gospel to other nations and set into place order, on the heals of an apostle comes prophets, by definition they are given to edify, exhort and comfort the body as it grows, finaly teachers, given to instruct the body in deeper understanding of the word. (the labors of the word) Yet some how we insert a pastor in here somehow. These were not people of authority as we so offten like to think, rather people of leadership. When one goes from leading to driving they are no longer a leader. Or when one puts a fence around a herd of sheep they are no longer a sheephard but a hireling. And this is where the christian world has come.


Again, is the issue exercise of authority or the seizing of preeminence?

Paul and Peter use terms like "rule" and "oversight", speaking clearly of a hierarchy of elders. Not a hierarchy of dominion, but a structure to teach, to cultivate, and to create an environment in which saints can grow, mature, flourish, and eventually become elders themselves.

Quote:
I agree with the last part of your statement here but lets take a closer look at the words rule and oversight and just what context they are use in and what they are to have oversight of.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Quote:
This is a good one as it is one of the first quoted by dictators, as preaching I an the authority and you must obey me or be in rebelion for God gave me and placed me to watch for you souls...
First let me say that the word here (obey) is not the same greek word use in Eph (children obey your parents) this word used in Hebrews means to be pursuded, or follow as you are pursuaded. This is a two way street, as the ones given to the church with gifts of spritual leadership will be held accountable for (what they teach) not whether we follow them in all things. It is profitable for us if we are pursuaded by teaching what is right and what is wrong, this does not mean we agree with everything the leader teaches. for that matter the leader must be willing to discuse whether everything they teach is right or wrong. For when we are in agreement one with another the body feels joy and not greif.
1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.



Contrasting with:

3 John 9-10
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
I have to stop for now will get back tommorow but take a look at the word rule in the next verse and check what it means not what we thing the word means.
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Old 08-24-2011, 10:42 AM
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Re: Who are we accountable to part II

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
Hebrews 13:17 - This is a good one as it is one of the first quoted by dictators, as preaching I an the authority and you must obey me or be in rebelion for God gave me and placed me to watch for you souls...
Hmmm...Dictator. This may very well be the crux of the entire discussion: the exercise of God given authority as God intended it to be used to bring about God's intended results VERSUS the seizing of preeminence as seen fit by the wielder of illegally obtained authority to bring about their own desired results. Does this occur in the church today? Unfortunately...yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
Funny how we put words into scripture that are not there, above you quoted from Ephesians 4, calling them roles or offices, but Ephesians is explicate to tell us they were gifts given to the body, not offices. Eph 4:8 further they were given to equip, and edify the body to do the work of ministry (ie each one of us has a ministry.
I think that 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 and Ephesians 4:8,11 are talking about the same thing. In 1 Corinthians 12:28, word SET is from the Greek etheto meaning appointed, ordained, purposed. And in both 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4, these are explicitly coming from God as God is setting these things in His Church...for specific reasons (Ephesians 4:12-16)...God's purpose is for those who receive these gifts/callings/roles to use them according to God's will for their use to bring about God's intended results.

The bridge or cement that really binds and illuminates 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 and Ephesians 4:8,11 together is Romans 12:4-8 - let those who receive these gifts use these gifts according to God's intended purpose.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsdrummer View Post
I have to stop for now will get back tommorow but take a look at the word rule in the next verse and check what it means not what we thing the word means.
I quoted a bunch of scripture and wasn't sure which one you meant...BUT
- in 1 Timothy 5:17, rule means to be higher in rank, to maintain, to preside over
- in 1 Thessalonians 5:12, the same word from 1 Timothy 5:17 is translated to mean are over you
- in Hebrews 13:17, rule means to lead, to command (as an official with authority)

After having said all that, your comment about "the dictator" is telling: Dictator versus Shepherd, Ruler versus Elder, God versus King.

Do I believe that God ordained dictators to rule the body of Christ? NO, absolutely not. Hidden within the meaning of the word rule is the responsibility to govern. Those who are chosen by God to be placed in the position of ministry need to do so according to God's purpose for their callings, among which are:
- Preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ
- Facilitating the reconciliation of lost humanity to God
- Teaching sound doctrine
- Perfecting the saints
- Ministering to the Church
- Edifying the body of Christ
- Watching lest any should slip
- Being examples to the flock of God
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