I mentioned a few weeks ago that I was going to post some ridiculous quotes from Wayne Grudem. These quotes are from the chapter on the Trinity in his book "Bible Doctrine" which is a condensed version of his Systematic Theology.
While some here may not count Grudem as a true believer, I do. I have enjoyed reading this book, and I'm not posting this in the spirit of spiritual arrogance. I am posting it because trinitarians (including Grudem) will say that a oneness view of the Godhead is heretical. They will also tell us how ridiculous we are to suggest they worship three gods, that we are bound for hell, and that the scriptures are clear on this.
But as you will see, Mr. Grudem calls the "Trinity" a "fact", says that God exists as "three persons" is a fact, and calls these persons at times not only distinct (historically orthodox trinitarian language) but also "separate" and "individuals". I'm thinking this is like unto the "fact" of evolution.
In contradiction to the thousands of singular pronouns used to refer to God in the scripture, you will notice the repeated use of the plural to refer to God/the Trinity as "they, them, their, personS, individuals, etc".
However the biggest offense to me is the fact that while these same people condemn us (oneness folks) they repeatedly talk about how incomprehensible the doctrine of the Trinity is and how impossible it is to understand. So then, I guess we will burn in hell over something that is by their admission is impossible to understand?!
And finally, after squirming through a whole chapter admitting that the Trinity SEEMS to be a contradiction (but he suggests really isn't, only a mystery) and SEEMS to be tritheism (but he says it isn't because the Bible doesn't allow us to say there is more than one God), Grudem finishes the chapter by comparing the Godhead (Trinity) to an ATHLETIC TEAM!
Now I have been vocal on here about my belief that All trinitarians are NOT lost, however when it comes to this debate, and all the mud slinging that goes on. Instead of slinging mud, I will just simply say in humility, that I don't see how the doctrine of the trinity teaches there there is One God in any sensible use of the word One.
Please share your thoughts, or respond directly to the quotes below:
The quotes:
“God, in his very being has always existed as more than one person. In fact God exists as three persons, yet he is one God.” Pg.104
“We may define the doctrine of the Trinity as follows: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.” Pg.104
“Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly found in the Old Testament, several passages suggest that God exists as more than one person.” Pg. 104
“Moreover, there are passage where one person is called “God” or “the Lord” and is distinguished from another person who is called God….(references
Psalm 45:6-7)…So two SEPARATE PERSONS are called “God”. Pg. 105
“Jesus rightly understands that David is referring to TWO SEPARATE PERSONS as “Lord”. Pg. 105
“But even without the New Testament teaching on the Trinity, it seems clear that David was aware of a plurality of persons in one God.” Pg. 105
“The Angel of the Lord seems to be a distinct person who is fully divine.” Pg. 105
[Speaking of Jesus’ baptism] “Here at once we have three MEMEBERS of the Trinity performing three distinct activities. God the Father is speaking from heaven; God the Son is being baptized…and God the Holy Spirit is descending from heaven.” Pg. 106
“The doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery that we will never be able to fully understand.” Pg. 106
“The FACT that God is THREE PERSONS means that….” Pg. 106
“Believers throughout all ages can only be baptized into the name of God himself.” Pg. 109
“Up to this point we have two conclusions, both abundantly taught throughout Scripture:
1. God is three persons
2. Each person is fully God
If the Bible only taught these two facts, there would be no logical problem at all in fitting them together, for THE OBVIOUS SOLUTION WOULD BE THAT THERE ARE THREE GODS. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God. We would have a system in which there are three equally divine beings. Such a system of belief would be called polytheism—or, more specifically, “tritheism”, or belief in three Gods. But that is far from what the Bible teaches.” Pg. 110
“3. There is one God. The THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS of the Trinity are not only one in purpose and in agreement on what THEY think, but are one in essence in their essential nature.” Pg. 110
“But in the Trinity, each of the persons is not just a separate part of God, each person is fully God.” Pg. 111
“It might be said that the Trinity is something like a man who is both a farmer, the mayor of his own town, and an elder in his church. He functions in different roles at different times, but he is one man. HOWEVER, this analogy is very deficient because there is only one person doing these three activities at different times, and the analogy cannot deal with the personal interaction among the MEMBERS of the Trinity. (In fact, this analogy simply teaches the heresy of modalism)” Pg. 111
“It is interesting that scripture nowhere uses any analogies to teach the doctrine of the Trinity.” Pg. 111
“But such a solution would deny the FACT that the THREE PERSONS are DISTINCT INDIVIDUALS…” Pg. 111
“Finally, as we noted above [Grudem wrestles with the obvious contraditions of the Tirnity doctrine and tries to sell the reader on how to reconcile this apparent contradiction of three distinct individual persons who are God, yet there is only one God], a simple solution could come by denying that there is one God. But this would result in a belief in three Gods, something clearly contradictory to Scripture.” Pg.112
“A final possible way to attempt an easy reconciliation of the biblical teaching about the Trinity would be to deny that there is only one God. The result is to say that God is three persons and each person is fully God. Therefore there are three Gods. Technically this view would be called “tritheism”. Pg. 114
“It [a tritheistic view of the Trinity] has similarities to many ancient pagan religions that held to a multiplicity of gods. “ Pg. 114
“Although no modern groups advocate tritheism, perhaps many evangelicals today unintentionally tend toward tritheistic views of the Trinity.” PG. 115
“The economy of the Trinity means the different ways the three persons act as they relate to the world and to each other.” Pg. 115-116
“God has always existed as three persons.” Pg. 117
“The only distinctions between the MEMBERS of the Trinity are in the ways THEY relate to each other and to the creation In those relationships THEY carry out roles that are appropriate to EACH PERSON.” Pg. 117
“From this discussion it is clear that this tri-personal form of being is far beyond our ability to comprehend.” Pg. 120
“But the existence of THREE PERSONS in one God is something beyond our understanding.” Pg. 121
“Can we understand the Trinity? We should be warned by the errors that have been made in the past. They have all come about through attempts to simplify the doctrine of the Trinity and make it completely understandable , removing all mystery from it. This we can never do. However, it is not correct to say that we cannot understand the doctrine of the Trinity at all. Certainly we can understand and know that God is three persons, and that each person is fully God, and that there is one God. We can know these things because the Bible teaches them….We wonder how there can be three distinct persons and each person have the whole being of God in himself, and yet God is only one undivided being. This we are unable to understand. …But it should also be said that scripture does not ask us to believe in a contradiction…But to say that God is THREE PERSONS and there is one God is not a contradiction. It is something we do not understand, and it is therefore a mystery or a pradox.” Pg. 121
“On a more everyday level, there are many activities that we carry out as human beings (in the labor force, in social organizations, in musical performances, in athletic teams, for example) in which many distinct individuals contribute to a unity or purpose or activity….we can see a faint reflection of the glory of God in his Trinitarian existence. Though we will never fully comprehend the mystery of the Trinity…” Pg, 122
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