Kenosis

Originalist · #1 10-27-2018, 08:02 PM

Sometime back a poster here on AFF posted an argument to demonstrate that what Christ said of Christ in Philippians 2 happened here on Earth and not in Heaven...

Quote:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God,
7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

The author of that thread refuted the trinitarian argument that this is speaking of God the Son coming from Heaven to Earth as a man, but demonstrated that Paul was referring exclusively to the man Christ Jesus long after he was born.

Does anyone remember this?

Esaias · #2 10-27-2018, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Sometime back a poster here on AFF posted an argument to demonstrate that what Christ said of Christ in Philippians 2 happened here on Earth and not in Heaven...

The author of that thread refuted the trinitarian argument that this is speaking of God the Son coming from Heaven to Earth as a man, but demonstrated that Paul was referring exclusively to the man Christ Jesus long after he was born.

Does anyone remember this?

Esaias · #3 10-27-2018, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

What's interesting is the passage in Philippians parallels Adam's story, but with Christ as the second Adam and reversing the Fall.

Adam, being made in the likeness, image, or "form" of God, tried to grasp equality with God by eating the forbidden fruit, yet suffered a forced death because of it.

Christ, likewise in the form of God, did not try to grasp equality with God, but instead humbled himself voluntarily - even to death - and as a result was exalted to the position of God (as indicated by Paul's citation of Isaiah 45 but applied to Christ).

So then Christ is fulfilling the role of second Adam, recapitulating the Fall but doing what Adam should have done in the first place. The passage in Philippians is a good example of Paul's Adam Christology.

Here's one.

Esaias · #4 10-27-2018, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1. The first couple verses establish the context - the attitude that Christians are to have. Paul wants the brethren to have the same attitude, an attitude that rejects "vainglory" and self-seeking. Instead, they are to have an attitude of humility and service, esteeming each other better than themselves, concerned for the well-being of others, etc.

2. They are to have the same attitude that Christ had. Christ did not seek His own personal benefit, but was a Servant not only of God but to all of us, acting on our behalf rather than on His own.

3. Adam was made a little lower than the angels. But Adam grasped at the supposed chance to be a god, to be equal with God. He grasped at god-like knowledge, attempting to steal his way to divinity. But instead he was expelled from the Garden and became subject to death, cut off from immortality. Adam, though made in the image and likeness of God, was not content with his assigned lot, but grasped at deification by illegitimate means. And the result was death and dishonour.

4. Christ, likewise in the form of God, did not think of being like God as something that had to be stolen, or as something to be obtained by illegitimate means. Rather, He voluntarily submitted to humility, ministered as a servant, and submitted even to death. In return, He was exalted, made immortal, and given a name equivalent to God. He was placed on an equal footing with God as a result of His exaltation, which in turn was due to Him willingly being a servant subject to death.

In other words, Adam and Christ were both "in the form or likeness of God". Both were assigned a human, subangelic existence. But Adam tried to grab hold of divinity, seeking what was thought to be to his advantage, and by this rebellion fell into dishonour and death.

Christ, however, did what Adam should have done - submitted Himself to the will of God. In fact, Christ voluntarily submitted Himself to servanthood, and even death (Adam's punishment). And the result was His exaltation and glorification and immortality. Christ re-enacted, in a sense, the story of Adam, but reversed the outcome by reversing the "choice" Adam made.

This demonstrated Christ's attitude, as one of selfless devotion to God and neighbor, as opposed to Adam's attempt to satisfy his own personal desires. Just as Christ's attitude led to glorification, so it is with us: God will honour those who humble themselves, those who follow Christ's example will be glorified with Him. Whereas the other way, the way of the self directed and self pleasing Adam, only leads to humiliation and failure. Those who follow Adam's example will suffer Adam's fate - death and indignity.

This passage is thus showing how Christ functions as the Second Adam, reversing Adam's Fall and its consequences of death and condemnation. This "Adam Christology" is further elaborated on in Romans 5:12-21, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 and 45-49.

There are several Christologies in the NT, and Christ as Second Adam is one of them. The others are Christ as Wisdom, Christ as Son of Man, Christ as Son of God, Christ as Spirit, Christ as Melchizedek Priest, Christ as Word/Logos, Christ as Son of David, Christ as Passover, Christ as Atonement, Christ as Immanuel, and several others.

Here's another.

Esaias · #5 10-27-2018, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

When viewed this way, the traditional trinitarian interpretation of this verse as describing a pre-incarnate Christ putting aside His divine glory to become a human being, with all the problems attendant on such as interpretation, goes away. This passage then is understood to be speaking NOT about a pre-incarnate divine being existing in the form of God, becoming human. But rather, it is seen to be speaking of how Christ (a man and thus already incarnate) recognized that equality with God was not something to be obtained illegitimately (contrary to Adam's attempt). He had a different attitude, one of humility and service, rather than one of self seeking.

And that is, in fact, Paul's entire point: that we should think and act likewise.

Esaias · #6 10-27-2018, 10:06 PM

Here's an old post I made on the subject, when I was using the nick "Eliseus":

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Hi, TB. I do not believe this passage is referring to any pre-incarnate state at all!

Rather, it is s specimen of Paul's Adam-Christology.

Paul presents several Christologies, meaning that Paul views Christ in several ways, or from several different perspectives. One of those perspectives concerns His role as the Second Adam. He speaks of this in his letter to the Romans, as well, and hints of it in several other places.

Here, Paul expresses Adam Christology and its practical application to the believer.

He begins with 'let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.' This sets the context, Christ's attitude and state of mind. Notice that Paul is speaking of the mind which was in 'Christ Jesus', literally 'The Anointed One, Jesus'. Thus, Paul is speaking of the post-incarnate Jesus, Jesus considered as the Messiah, a human being, the Son of God, anointed by God to be the vessel of Redemption and Salvation for all mankind, sent to reverse the curse brought upon Adam's kin, brought upon us by Adam's disobedience in the Garden. So we are not speaking of the mentality or attitude possessed by the pre-incarnate Logos, but of the human Son of God.

He then says "Who being in the form of God..." Here Paul recalls the words of Moses who described the first Adam as being made in the image of God. Paul will begin a comparison and contrast between the first Adam and the second Adam (Christ). Whereas BOTH were in the form of God, they followed two very different paths, because of their different attitudes or 'minds'.

'...thought it not robbery to be equal with God'. Some translators render this along the lines of '...did not think equality with God was something to be grasped.' This is precisely the opposite of the first Adam's inclination, who being in the form of God was not content to merely be a microcosm of God but chose to 'be as God'. Christ however did NOT pursue that path.

'But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men...' The first Adam attempted by his disobedience to make himself of quite some reputation, in attempting to usurp God's role and position for himself, and taking upon himself the form of a god, but was rendered mortal by the judgement of God. The second Adam, however, did just the opposite, in that He voluntarily took upon himself the form (appearance) of a servant (instead of a master, as He himself so declared several times). He was voluntarily reduced to the likeness or sameness of mortal man, whereas the first Adam was involunatrily reduced to such a state.

'And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.' Here Christ is said to have humbled himself, having taken the path of servanthood and mortality, and submitted to the death of the cross. This is in stark contrast to the first Adam, who being found in fashion as God (in the image and likeness of God) was disobedient (because of his grasping at being equal with God) and was forced into the path of lowly servanthood and mortality, weakness and death.

'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name...' The first Adam was demoted and cast down, because of his disobedience in attempting to be equal with God, whereas the second Adam was exalted and lifted up and placed on an equal footing with God because of His obedience and submission.

'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Jesus (the man, the Son of God, the second or 'last' Adam) was exalted into a place of equality with God so that the prophetic declaration of Isaiah concerning YHVH would be fulfilled in Christ, and this is the method by which glory is given to YHVH (God, the Father). This is a wonderful statement of the Oneness doctrine, by the way, in that the only acceptable way of glorifying God is to glorify Jesus Christ.

Whereas the first Adam was made in the image or form of God, and chose to grasp equality with God, and was punished by being demoted to the lowly state of mortal and weak humanity, made a servant of death, the second or last Adam, Jesus Christ, chose a different path. He chose a path of obedience, choosing not to step upon the stage as the equal of God but rather as a lowly, mortal servant. And this submission of the Son of God resulted in His exaltation to equality with God, meaning that the worship and honour due to God is now due to Jesus Christ. Christ's re-enactment of the fall of man, with the key elements reversed by His obedience, resulted in His exaltation and the redemption and salvation of mankind.

Trinitarians have for a long time seen this passage as a declaration of the pre-existence of Christ, and as referring to his 'kenosis' in incarnating and becoming human. There are however serious problems with this interpretation.

1. First and foremost, it inserts into Paul's theology what is everywhere else missing - the idea of a pre-incarnate divine intermediary being. The only New Testament passages which could even be supposed to so much as suggest or hint at such an idea are found much later, in the apostle John's writings, and even those are not wholly supportive of the 'intermediary divine being' hypothesis which is the foundation of Trinitarian and Arian theology.

2. Secondly, if the preincarnation interpretation be accepted, it requires us to believe that Jesus Christ (the man) was indeed a distinct personage from God prior to incarnation, yet at the same time LESS than God Himself and someone distinct from GOD (not merely distinct from 'God the father' but from GOD in toto.) This is nothing else than Arianism. If this is preincarnation doctrine, then Christ is simply a second God-like being, not God Himself, contrary to both trinitarian and Oneness theology.

3. The Adamic Christology interpretation is consistent with Paul's theology everywhere else, in presenting Christ as (among other things) a God-sent Saviour who recapitulates not only Israel's spiritual history, but all mankind's, yet in such a way as to reverse the fall of man and secure Redemption and immortality instead of death and mortality (as the first Adam did).

Moreover, the idea of Christ as being a pre-existent divine intermediary being is simply repugnant to the whole tenor of the rest of Scripture, ESPECIALLY the old testament scripture which was familiar to Paul and upon which he relied for teaching material.

Esaias · #7 10-27-2018, 10:07 PM

Another one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Thank you. I only have a few moments before I have to sign off for the day, so my responses at this point will be somewhat brief. I'll post more tomorrow, Lord willing.

My previous post explains this somewhat, in that Christ as the Last Adam was faced with circumstances similar (theologically) to the first Adam's, and yet He (Christ) made the proper choices whereas Adam made the wrong choices. Through the medium of Christ reversing those Adamic decisions God provided Redemption to us all.

Most modern trinitarians will not use the language of 'divine intermediary being' however it is found in some trinitarian scholars. It is expressly used by James Dunn in his Christology in the Making which by the way provides a good solid exegesis of Adam Christology in the New Testament.

By this term I mean a divine (as opposed to human) being or sentient entity which functions as an intermediary between the Divine Reality and mankind. Essentially the function of the Logos in trinitarian thought.

Generally speaking, the term 'Jesus Christ' or 'Christ Jesus' refers to the Son of God, that is, God existing as a human being. The two scriptures you quoted I do not take to be referring to the pre-Incarnate Deity, but rather to Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the human Son of God, or in other words, God existing as a genuine human being) which is then transposed back in time to qualify and define the Rock or Spirit being referred to. In other words, the Rock is YHVH (see Deut 32) and the Spirit is the Spirit of YHVH, but both apostles identified that Rock (DEITY) and Spirit as being CHRIST - ie that which was the Rock and Spirit in the Old Testament is the CHRIST of the New Testament. I will try to explain this better tomorrow when I have more time.