Romans 11:25-32

[Amanah]

I have questions about Roman's 11:25-32

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

**********
What is meant by the fullness of the gentiles?

Isnt This passage referring to the biological ancestors of Abraham being grafted back into the root?

In reading pre Dispensational commentary by authors such as John Gill, Eldon Ladd, and others, there seems to an expectation of a revival among the ancestors of Abraham?

I also see in verse 32, that the ultimate end goal is that God will have mercy on all. Yet there seems to be a time after the gentile revival when there will be a Jewish revival?

[1 God]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have questions about Roman's 11:25-32

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

**********
What is meant by the fullness of the gentiles?

Isnt This passage referring to the biological ancestors of Abraham being grafted back into the root?

In reading pre Dispensational commentary by authors such as John Gill, Eldon Ladd, and others, there seems to an expectation of a revival among the ancestors of Abraham?

I also see in verse 32, that the ultimate end goal is that God will have mercy on all. Yet there seems to be a time after the gentile revival when there will be a Jewish revival?

This will be the beginning of the revival of the Jews and the end of gentile reign(times of the gentiles)....

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet....


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

[coksiw]

I hope is not too long to read:


This is the way I see it. We, new born believers, Gentiles and elect Israel, are the people of God. There is also a current nation of Israel. That actual nation has apostolic Jewish believers and also blinded Jewish.

The Lord returns to raise his saints, wherever they are, Gentiles and elect Israel, whether they are in the nation of Israel or somewhere else.

And the Lord comes to establish his righteous kingdom of God on the earth. There are a lot of promises regarding Israel for that age. However, on the earth, before his coming, there is also nation of Israel. What the Lord is going to do with the nation of Israel, when the Lord comes with his saints and the godly Israel? How is that situation going to be resolved?


The day of the Lord is the day of mourning (repentance) for the nation of Israel:

""In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David [shall be] like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. "It shall be in that day [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for [his] only [son], and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo." - Zechariah 12:8-11 NKJV

Here we see they are defended mighty by the Lord yet they mourn.

More details:

"Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant (a remnant!) of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee [through] My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, [And] all the saints with You (the universal church of God!). It shall come to pass in that day [That] there will be no light; The lights will diminish. It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD--Neither day nor night (remember the sun and moon turning dark?). But at evening time it shall happen [That] it will be light. And in that day it shall be [That] living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be--"The LORD [is] one," And His name one. ... And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. (The man of sin and his army being consume with the breath of His mouth (spoken word) and destroy with the brightness of His coming, 2Th 2:8)" - Zechariah 14:1-9, 12 NKJV

Notice many in Jerusalem will be killed, and many taken into captivity, however there will be a remnant left in the city. I wonder if that remanent are the ones that will turn to Christ at this coming spoken about in Chapter 12.



When the Lord comes, not every saint will be dead, so how are they going to be resurrected if they are not dead? how is that going to be resolved? Answer: transformation 1Co 15:51, 1Th 4:17. When the Lord comes to establish a physical kingdom from Jerusalem with this godly Israel, there will be already a physical nation of Israel on the earth. How is that going to be resolved? Answer: Zech 12 and 14?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have questions about Roman's 11:25-32

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

**********
What is meant by the fullness of the gentiles?

Isnt This passage referring to the biological ancestors of Abraham being grafted back into the root?

In reading pre Dispensational commentary by authors such as John Gill, Eldon Ladd, and others, there seems to an expectation of a revival among the ancestors of Abraham?

I also see in verse 32, that the ultimate end goal is that God will have mercy on all. Yet there seems to be a time after the gentile revival when there will be a Jewish revival?

The Catholic church taught Replacement theology. Many Protestants accepted that, but many others as you mentioned saw a disconnect between replacement and the scripture. So they attempted to make some sense of it.

Zionism also was gaining ground among Jews at the time (18th-19th centuries) so there was some politicisation of religion taking place as well. The Zionists were busy getting Christians to support a Jewish state so they laid the groundwork by seeding certain beliefs among prominent Christian groups. Eventually they settled on Darby's dispensationalism to be the main vehicle for promoting their position (likely they funded it and created it and used him and Scofield to popularize it).

I wrote some about the passage here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=198

The issue of what 'the fullness of the nations' is referring to is established by the apostle in Romans chapter 9, where he specifically identifies the nations of the house of Israel as the nations being called into Christ, along with the house of Judah - aka 'Jews'.

There is a lot of confusion today regarding the term 'Israel'. It has actually several meanings. It can refer to Jacob himself, it can refer to all his descendants - regardless of their morality or religion. It can refer to the people united to God by Covenant. Thus, he says 'they are not all Israel which are of Israel', meaning that not all of Israel's descendants are judicially classified as 'Israel', the Covenanted nation. He goes on to illustrate this with examples, that those considered by God to be 'Israel' are those who 'of the promise', meaning those who born of God, and not merely those biologically descended from Jacob. This is exactly what the gospel of John ch 1 deals with when speaking of the children of God as those who were not born of blood or the will of the flesh or the will of man but of God.

He also says that 'the nations, which sought not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness', whereas 'Israel, which sought after righteousness, have not attained to it'. Meaning, the nation judicially called 'Israel' - which in that time was only the house of Judah - had sought after righteousness, ie 'kept the law covenant', but failed to actually obtain righteousness, because they sought it not by faith. Meanwhile, 'gentiles', non Judeans, heathens and idolaters, had in fact obtained righteousness through faith in Christ. Thus, only a portion, a remnant, of the judicially recognised 'Israel' attained to righteousness to be saved - via faith in Christ.

Thus, there is a 'blindness in part'. That is to say, part of the nation known as 'Israel' - which in that time consisted of the Jews, ie Judeans, ie house of Judah - was disobedient to the faith of Messiah and unbelieving, whereas part of that same group was not but were the remnant according to election.

Now, this remnant of Judeans - the then-existing nation recognised as 'Israel' - were not the only people who would be saved, for Messiah was to turn away ungodliness from JACOB, a term referring to all twelve tribes descended from the patriarch. This means the house of Israel - as opposed to the house of Judah - was also to be saved. This house of Israel - also known in the OT as 'Ephraim' or the 'house of Joseph' because of the dominant tribe in that kingdom - was to become a vast multitude of people, in fact a 'fullness of nations'. They had been divorced by God - see Hosea - and were no longer part of the judicially recognised 'Israel of God'. They had in fact become mere heathens, 'gentiles'. But they were to be regathered to God, joined with the house of Judah - the 'Jews' - under Christ, in the new covenant.

And thus, 'all Israel shall be saved', meaning not only the house of Judah, but also the house of Joseph/Ephraim, aka 'the house of Israel'. The blindness in part means that part of 'legal Israel' were blinded by unbelief. But in their place the fullness of nations comes in. So that the Israel of God is no longer partially saved and partially lost in unbelief, but wholly saved, since the other tribes besides those in the house of Judah have entered into the new covenant, have been joined with Messiah, have been made 'one nation' under 'one head', etc.

The blindness in part does not mean that any particular Israelite or 'Jew' was prevented from having faith and believing in Christ, as I already demonstrated. The apostle expected Israelites of the house of Judah, aka 'Jews', to be able to be saved in his day, on the same terms as anyone else - faith in Christ. So the blindness is not a 'sovereign decree of God' whereby people are prevented from being saved, whereby they CANNOT have faith. Rather, it is a punishment inflicted on the legally recognised nation of God for their unbelief and failure to submit to Christ. That partial blindness has ended, because there is no 'partial Israel' today, because Judea is no longer 'the Israel of God' in any legal sense, having been obliterated in AD 70 in fulfillment of Christ's Olivet prophecy.


Regarding Romans 11 and the nations OTHER than Judah and the 'multitude of nations' of Ephraim/Joseph, the chapter does not really deal with them, and neither does the entire epistle. However, this does not mean the other nations are excluded from faith in Christ. Isaiah clearly states this very explicitly when he says 'let not the son of the stranger say I am cut off' because the son of the stranger who takes hold of God's covenant shall be given a place in God's house better than that of a son or daughter.

[Esaias]

The 'fullness of the gentiles' refers to the divorced and scattered House of Israel, also known Biblically as 'Ephraim' or 'Joseph', not to be confused with the House of Judah, also known as 'Jews'.

The term 'fullness of the gentiles' is τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν, the pleroma of the ethnon. Ethnon is a word meaning 'nations'. It is used to refer to any nation, and does not necessarily mean non-Israelites. The high priest Caiaphas used the word when he worried about the Romans coming and taking away 'our place and our nation' in John 11:48, thus showing that the word can be applied to the Jews as ell as any other national or ethnic group. Indeed, the word ethnon is the origin of the English word 'ethnic'.

The word 'fullness' is pleroma. It is a synonym of the Greek word pletho, both words are used to translate the Hebrew word melo. In Genesis 48:19 we read a prophecy given concerning Ephraim, that he would become a 'multitude of nations' or in the Greek πλῆθος ἐθνῶν. Since the Hebrew melo is translated by either pletho or pleroma, the two Greek words being synonyms, the phrase in Genesis is for all practical purposes identical to the phrase used by the apostle in Romans 11.

So, there is a prophetic plan going back to Genesis for the children of Israel to become a multitude of nations. Abraham's descendants were to become a multitude of nations - same exact phrase in the Greek at Genesis 17:4, and that promise was to be fulfilled only through Isaac and later Jacob. Thus, the Israelites were to become a multitude of nations. One tribe, Manasseh, was to become a 'great nation' is its own right, and another tribe, Ephraim, was to become a multitude or 'fullness of nations' as well. And this of course does not include the other 10 tribes. So we see that the descendants of Jacob were to become not just "a" nation, but a large multitude of nations, or a 'fullness of nations'.

Now, as we all know, once they became a nation and were brought forth out of Egypt, they settled in Canaan. They were a tribal confederacy of sorts until Saul and then later David was made king over all 12 tribed Israel. His son Solomon came to the throne, and upon his death, his son Rehoboam came to the throne. In keeping with prophecy, there was a civil war and a rebellion when ten tribes led by Ephraim seceded from the Davidic government under Jeroboam. Thus, the nation was split into two, the House of Judah - dominated by the tribe of Judah and including Benjamin and some of Levi - and the House of Israel, consisting of the other 10 tribes and dominated by the tribe of Ephraim. So now they have become two nations.

The northern kingdom of Israel went from bad to worse and were finally divorced by God, became 'not my people' and 'not a people', and lost the right to the name 'Israel'. They were destroyed and led captive by the Assyrians in the 8th century BC. They were scattered abroad and were legally speaking no different than any other nation. They were heathens whose only connection to God was their ancestry as descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But they had no Covenantal status, being divorced and put away by God. Nevertheless, God promised that they would increase in number to become a vast multitude of people, and one day God would draw them back, make a new covenant with them, have mercy on them, call them his people once more, indeed he would call them 'sons of the living God', and they would be joined together with their brethren the House of Judah under the Messiah as one people or commonwealth.

The house of Judah, while repeatedly backsliding, was not divorced, and retained the right to the name 'Israel'. This of course made certain that the Son of God would not be born out of wedlock. They were prophecied to join with the heathen in killing Messiah, would be cut off as a result and destroyed, except for a remnant that would be saved, turn to Messiah, be joined with the house of Israel/Ephraim/the multitude of nations/the fullness of nations that had been divorced and cast off and which was to be recovered by God, be one people under Messiah, etc.

The apostle Paul wrote his letter to the Romans - the church in Rome - and specifically referenced all this and identified all this as being fulfilled in his day.

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(Romans 9:23-26 KJV)

The prophecy referred to is from Hosea:

And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(Hosea 1:6-11 KJV)

The prophet said the House of Israel was 'not my people' and he would no longer have mercy on them, but they would increase as the sand of the sea etc, and that it would be said to them 'you are the sons of the living God'. Moreover they would be gathered together with the children of Judah - aka 'Jews' - under Christ, the 'one head' or ruler, the Messiah. The apostle said this was happening in his day, as 'Jews and Gentiles' were coming together in Christ. Which means the 'gentiles' or nations or ethnown that the apostle was speaking of were the nations of the house of Israel/Ephraim.

When in the rest of chapter 9 of Romans he speaks of the remnant being saved of Israel, he is quoting Isaiah:

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
(Romans 9:27-28 KJV)

Here is the original quote:

For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt. For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.
(Isaiah 10:22-25 KJV)

The context is talking about a remnant escaping from the wrath of the Assyrian invasion. There would be a remnant not only of the house of Israel but of the house of Judah that would be saved.

He also quotes the following:

And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
(Isaiah 1:8-9 KJV)

This is a prophecy concerning Judah and Jerusalem, saying that God would leave a remnant, otherwise they would have been utterly wiped out like Sodom and Gomorrah.

So the apostle refers to prophecies concerning the house of Judah having a remnant saved. He goes on to say 'Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, did not attain to it'. What Israel is he speaking of? Obviously, Judah, since Judah not only followed after the law of righteousness, but was also the only ones left who could claim the title Israel, as they had not been divorced and cast off like the northern kingdom of Israel - the other ten tribes - had been. The 'nations' however had obtained righteousness through faith in Christ - along with the remnant of Judeans - Jews - who likewise had come to faith in Christ. Since the immediate context of the 'gentiles' or nations that the apostle is speaking of are the divorced and scattered house of Israel, it follows that they are the same 'gentiles' mentioned as having attained to righteousness through faith.

He then goes on to say this:

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
(Romans 10:17-21 KJV)

The quote from Moses is here:

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
(Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV)

Those who are 'not a people' are the ones who were told in Hosea 'you are not my people', as it is written here:

For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
(Isaiah 7:8 KJV)

- cont in next

[Esaias]

The apostle identified the 'gentiles' in Romans 9 and 10 as the divorced and scattered Israelites of Hosea and Isaiah, who were said to be not a people but were now the 'children of the living God'.

So then, in Romans 11 when he is speaking of Israel in contrast to 'the nations' or 'gentiles', in keeping with the context of the whole epistle, he is speaking of the contrast between Judah - the only nation that had retained the right to the name Israel, from whom a remnant would be saved - and the scattered multitudes of the northern kingdom or house of Israel who had been divorced, lost the title 'Israel', but who would be gathered together with Judah under Messiah.

And THUS 'all Israel would be saved'. All Israel would be saved by both houses of Judah and Israel coming together into the new covenant under Messiah in fulfillment of the prophecies. All Israel cannot be saved as the Scripture promises UNLESS BOTH HOUSES ARE JOINED TOGETHER UNDER MESSIAH.

In regards to the 'times of the gentiles' or 'times of the nations' that is referring to the duration during which Jerusalem would be trodden down by the nations. There is no connection between 'times of the gentiles being fulfilled' and the 'fullness of the gentiles' except the word 'nations/gentiles'. One cannot connect them on that basis alone. Isaiah 6 does not refer to the 'fullness of the nations/gentiles', but speaks of blindness being imposed on Israel until desolation and removing away. It also says that 'a tenth' shall remain, that is, a remnant, just as the apostle interpreted for us, a remnant of the house of Judah would be saved.

As for the 'gentiles' of verse 12 and the 'gentiles' of verse 25, they are the same people. The fall of Judah resulted in the gospel going to the 'gentiles' ie the scattered multitude of 'nations' of the house of Israel/Ephraim. It also resulted in the 'riches of the world'. that is, it was a blessing to all the world. The gospel going out from Judea unto all the world has indeed been a blessing to all the world, and the whole world has indeed been enriched by the gospel.

As for 'their fullness', in verse 12, the apostle defines it as 'the receiving of them', meaning the Judahites coming to faith in Christ. The house of Judah officially killed the Messiah and rejected him, this caused the gospel to go forth to the 'gentiles' ie House of Israel and made the gospel available to all the world so that all the world could be blessed. Judahites returning to Christ would be 'life from the dead', another reference to a prophecy concerning the salvation of 'all Israel' - BOTH HOUSES, as found here in Ezekiel 37, where the 'whole house of Israel' - a reference to the entirety of Israel, or 'all Israel' - would come back from the dead by the operation of the Holy Ghost baptism. So, again, the apostle is saying that the receiving of Judah, together with Ephraim, would be 'life from the dead' ie fulfillment of prophecy.

Verses 17-24 identify the 'gentiles' as the 'wild olive tree', which further identifies them as the divorced and scattered house of Israel:

Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(Isaiah 5:1-7 KJV)

The house of Israel was described as an uncultivated vineyard and wild grapes, while the house of Judah was described as God's 'pleasant plant'. This description is very similar to the apostles in Romans 11.

O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips. Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy. I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
(Hosea 14:1-6 KJV)

Here, the house of Israel which was divorced and scattered and counted as simply 'gentiles' or heathens was to return to God and become a spreading olive tree.

For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot. Yet I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?
(Jeremiah 2:20-21 KJV)

Again, God's people are identified as either a good plant or a wild, strange, degenerate plant. SAME plant, just one is cultivated the other is wild, degenrated, strange, unkempt, etc. So when the apostle speaks of wild olive branches being grafted into the tree, and compares and contrasts the natural and the 'wild' branches or olive trees, the contrast - in keeping with the entire theme of the epistle - is between Judah and the 'gentiles', meaning thenations of the house of Israel/Ephraim as per the prophecies he is constantly quoting and alluding to.

This is further confirmed here:

The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
(Jeremiah 11:16-17 KJV)

Here both the House of Israel and the House of Judah are called an olive tree, and those who rebel against God are called branches which are broken off. The first branches to be broken off were the House of Israel. They continued as a wild plant but were to be rejoined with Judah under Messiah. The second branches to be broken off was the House of Judah. They of course can be grafted back in again by faith, so the wild branches ought not to boast against the natural branches.

In any event, the olive tree, branches, etc are symbolism used by the prophets to refer to Israel and Judah especially as regards their conditions of either faithfulness or apostasy.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I hope is not too long to read:


This is the way I see it. We, new born believers, Gentiles and elect Israel, are the people of God. There is also a current nation of Israel. That actual nation has apostolic Jewish believers and also blinded Jewish.

The Lord returns to raise his saints, wherever they are, Gentiles and elect Israel, whether they are in the nation of Israel or somewhere else.

And the Lord comes to establish his righteous kingdom of God on the earth. There are a lot of promises regarding Israel for that age. However, on the earth, before his coming, there is also nation of Israel. What the Lord is going to do with the nation of Israel, when the Lord comes with his saints and the godly Israel? How is that situation going to be resolved?


The day of the Lord is the day of mourning (repentance) for the nation of Israel:



Here we see they are defended mighty by the Lord yet they mourn.

More details:



Notice many in Jerusalem will be killed, and many taken into captivity, however there will be a remnant left in the city. I wonder if that remanent are the ones that will turn to Christ at this coming spoken about in Chapter 12.



When the Lord comes, not every saint will be dead, so how are they going to be resurrected if they are not dead? how is that going to be resolved? Answer: transformation 1Co 15:51, 1Th 4:17. When the Lord comes to establish a physical kingdom from Jerusalem with this godly Israel, there will be already a physical nation of Israel on the earth. How is that going to be resolved? Answer: Zech 12 and 14?

Reading Esaias post I noticed I didn't answer the question about fullness of the gentiles.

Let's look it in the context. The context gives the meaning to the word.

"that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved"

It speaks of something in progress, and gentiles coming in, so they are not "in" originally. It speaks of Israel blinding until that thing in progress is completed. It speaks of what would happen when the completion happens: all Israel shall be saved.

So "fulness" here simply means "all", as in "all of the gentiles not in, are in". It correlates with this (which, by the way, it is the same theme as the verse in Romans: the last things):

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." - Matthew 24:14 KJV

As Esaias says, "ethnos" can be translated as "nations" but depending on the context it can mean "Gentiles". Paul used that term specifically to refer to Gentiles in his Letters. Look it up yourself here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...KJV#lexResults

Even in the context of Romans 11, you can see that it is used in comparison with Israel: the relationship of Israel to the rest of the nations. So "Gentiles" and not "all nations including Israel" is the preferred meaning.

A word can have a semantic range of multiple meanings, but the context rules to give it the actual meaning.

[Amanah]

Elder Esaias, this is a masterpiece of scripture interpretation.

At first I wanted to protest that the letter of Romans was written to the Church, and therefore your interpretation of gentiles being the northern scattered tribes could not be.

But after following all your references from Genesis 48:19 (Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations) to the references in Hosea about scattered backsliding Israel being regathered to the Lord, I believe your interpretation is correct.

[Amanah]

Brother Coksiw, Beginning with Romans 9 through Romans 11, after reading Esaias comments, I think that Paul is addressing Israelites specifically.

reworded: I think Romans 9-11 is addressing Israelites specifically.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Elder Esaias, this is a masterpiece of scripture interpretation.

At first I wanted to protest that the letter of Romans was written to the Church, and therefore your interpretation of gentiles being the northern scattered tribes could not be.

But after following all your references from Genesis 48:19 (Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations) to the references in Hosea about scattered backsliding Israel being regathered to the Lord, I believe your interpretation is correct.

Well, it WAS written to the church, but the church is nothing less than Israel (both Houses) under the new covenant. I'm going to quote brother Benincasa from the other thread here:

"What did the Greek word ἐκκλησία mean to Judeans? Not to Greeks, but to first century Judeans who read their Bible scrolls in Greek? Matthew 16:18 is the first place the Judean would read of Jesus using the word ἐκκλησία. Deuteronomy 4:10 is the first place in the LXX where the word ἐκκλησία is employed. I said that to say this, many of us never had Greek as our birth language. My wife, her brother, and her mother all birth language is Greek. Yet, they don't think like first century Judeans, or first century Judean Christians. We all have to get past the things we accepted as we came up in "church" because we use words without much thought about how THEY used those words. The ἐκκλησία was ( to a Judean ) the assembly of Israel. But just not any assembly. An assembly who heard the voice of God as in Deuteronomy 4:10."