Morality-forming in the Age of Conscience

[donfriesen1]

Those in the times between The Garden and Mt Sinai had no law of God with which to build their morality on. We today have great helps in the Word and in the Holy Ghost dwelling within, to formulate moral codes.

What did those in the Age of Conscience use to make a moral code?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Those in the times between The Garden and Mt Sinai had no law of God with which to build their morality on. We today have great helps in the Word and in the Holy Ghost dwelling within, to formulate moral codes.

What did those in the Age of Conscience use to make a moral code?

Where is the phrase "Age of Conscience" found in the Bible?
Was this phrase mentioned anywhere in the OT or NT?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Those in the times between The Garden and Mt Sinai had no law of God with which to build their morality on. We today have great helps in the Word and in the Holy Ghost dwelling within, to formulate moral codes.

What did those in the Age of Conscience use to make a moral code?

Abraham lived between the Garden and Sinai.

Here is what God said of His friend:

Genesis 26:5 (ESV),

5 ...Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws...

The Hebrew text for "laws" is וְתוֹרֹתָֽי - wə·ṯō·w·rō·ṯāy, from the Hebrew word torah.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/26-5.htm

The LXX uses νομιμα - no·mi·ma, from the Greek word nomos.

See: https://biblehub.com/sepd/genesis/26.htm

How did Abraham achieve this obedience to God's law, if as you have claimed in this thread, as your opening point no less, that people in this time "had no law of God"?

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Where is the phrase "Age of Conscience" found in the Bible?
Was this phrase mentioned anywhere in the OT or NT?

No. And do you want to make a point about this, but have yet to? Why do you delay? Plz do so soon.

The word conscience is not unknown in scripture. You know this as well as any other.

You also well know that after the Garden, between it and Sinai, that God gave no law. It is not unusual for Bible students to put labels on what they see, for convenience sake. Therefore to say anything about a title does not negate the reality a title conveys. Will you try to do so with 'Age of Conscience', telling all that what the title conveys is really fictional?

The title conveys two realities of that time.

What does a man such as yourself call this time when there was no law? What should it be called? Or do you prefer to say it should not be called but not having something in its place? Don't leave it as a vacuum because we know how emptiness is abhoured. Don't curse the darness without lighting a candle. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. And so, what could be the reason why you say this?

But Dom, plz, you again divert from the main question of a thread. This is your favourite response, which does not address the need of the thread. You have it in you but you again exhibit diversionary methods instead of hitting the nail on the head.

Its been refreshing to see many of your posts actually putting forward reasons based on scripture with scriptural quotes. Plz keep this up going forward. Your snide remarks of my character or mockings posed as viable questions do little to put forward Biblical discussions.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Abraham lived between the Garden and Sinai.

Here is what God said of His friend:

Genesis 26:5 (ESV),

5 ...Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws...

The Hebrew text for "laws" is וְתוֹרֹתָֽי - wə·ṯō·w·rō·ṯāy, from the Hebrew word torah.

See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/26-5.htm

The LXX uses νομιμα - no·mi·ma, from the Greek word nomos.

See: https://biblehub.com/sepd/genesis/26.htm

How did Abraham achieve this obedience to God's law, if as you have claimed in this thread, as your opening point no less, that people in this time "had no law of God"?

Awesome point you make. Thank You.

Scripture says that God was not known by the name Jehovah until a certain time, Exodus 6:3. Yet we see the name Jehovah mentioned at the Beginning. The explanation for this seeming contradiction is that the writer of the Torah, Moses, applied the terms common in his day to events which had preceded his existence. And does this explain why the terms applied to Abraham's obedience were Law terms? Maybe. Maybe not.

Paul says (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. It is Paul who says there is no law, and somehow we must reconcile what he says with what we see in other places. How do you, votivesoul, reconcile Paul's statement with your claim, when they are contradictory.

God speaks words to individuals in the Age of Conscience. Noah, being one. Abraham and Hagar being others. But does personal communication to one constitute giving of law, applicable to all? If God speaks to an individual is it not right to think it is truth? Yes, truth which may or may not be applicable to another. What God said to Hagar was meant for her alone. Does God have covenant with Hagar? Does God only speak with those he has covenant with?

Moses wrote the Torah containing the words God spoke to Abraham. God borrows the methods used in the language of the day - repetition for clarification and emphasis. The words God first said to Abraham, were hundreds of years later applied to what was given at Sinai. What you have said does not prove that there was law between the Garden and Sinai. It proves God's commendation of Abraham was so noteworthy that the words were memorialized in uses in other instances.

Plz try again to disprove Paul concepts (not mine), by showing that he was wrong to say there was no law. I only refer to what he said when saying there was no law between the Garden and Sinai. Good luck with effectively contradicting Paul. You'll need it.

Plz, votivesoul, also comment on the source for morality for those of that time, if you would plz.

[donfriesen1]

MORALITY CODE

Any morality code which those of the Age of Conscience had was Man-made, when God had not yet then given his Word for this purpose. It could be said that Man drew upon that which God gave as created in his image, when they made a code. This then would make God the source of any code. Yet it is Man who by their experience, feelings and conscience, along with their reasoning abilities, would make a moral code in that age, if they made one, when God hasn't provided one in writing or speech. It was given in spirit.

What those then experienced, or learned by thought, was shared with others, as social people do. When many would come to the same conclusions, it then became an unwritten code, which they then thought all should give heed to. God should be given the glory for this code, when it came out of what he had provided - his image in Man.

God had not yet said, 'do not murder'. Yet Cain felt vengeance would be taken on him as a murderer. He knew moral failure resulted in consequences. What he said expressed the opinion that others had the same code as he. He knew it was also in others. He did not learn about vengeance from the law of God. He learnt it from the image of God.

Any code they had came out of subjective thought and by experience, because it did not come from the objective Word which Paul says didn't exist, Ro5.13.

Did Paul mean the Law wasn't forever settled in Heaven? No. He knew God's Word was eternal but not yet given on earth, as it later came to be, in stages.

[donfriesen1]

Spiritual narcissism is viewed as moral failure.

Narcissism is a word which had not been a large part of my vocabulary or understanding. So I read: https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-...eir%20mistakes.

1. Acting superior
2. Lack of empathy
3. Religious knowledge used to manipulate
4. Spiritually critical degradation of others
5. Validation seeking methods
6. Lacking ownership responsibilities
7. Negating negatives, accentuating only positives

Activities a narcissist is involved in:
1. Attention seeking
2. Spiritual superiority attitudes
3. Placement of their beliefs without consent
4. Spirituality for materialistic gain
5. Manipulation, ie use of shame
6. Spiritual involvement for ignoring issues
7. Large feelings of self-importance

Whether the author compiled it from their experience or their education, or both, it shows they would make use of subjective evaluation when describing someone as a narcissist. It is Man-made. For, God has given no definition of Narcissism, though explaining it in other ways, including examples.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend. Any called a narcissist should examine themselves, especially if from a friend. The most effective is from a friend.

Labelling someone as such involves subjective assessment of those who hold such characteristics. It is also true that these attributes are held by most everyone to varying degrees at various times.

Those making an assessment would need to be trained, if making quick evaluations. It is that or they must draw conclusions from repeated examples of behaviour, or do both, in order for it to be accurate.

No doubt, having only one or two of the above qualities would not result in being assessed as a spiritual narcissist. Repeated occurrences of seeing a majority of traits would be needed to result in one being accurately thought of as a spiritual narcissist.

Anyone calling someone down on first meeting, using this label, would then only be name calling, when long term displays of the majorities of traits are not known to them.

[donfriesen1]

Free-will is a principle seen derived from the pages of Gen2. Yet it is not derived from a command of God such as "Thou shalt have free will". But it is derived from the command not to eat the 'apple' and the placing of the 'tree' which had this fruit.

It is derived by reading between the lines.

As such, reading between the lines, or instead, calling it deductive reasoning, of words of God not directly related, leads to belief in a principle. This has led to the formation of a moral value.

This moral value, 'don't cram your beliefs down another's throat - forcing them to believe in it', was not a value coming from a command of God asking for it. This moral value admired by many with Western values except for many Moslems, came by way of deductive reasoning.

Which other moral value came by this means, in a time when God had not yet given much of his Word?

[Amanah]

Ten Commandments Before Sinai

1st & 2nd: No Other Gods / Idolatry: Jacob commanded his household to "put away the foreign gods" [Genesis 35:2-4], and he understood that stealing household idols was a sin [Genesis 31:30-35].

3rd: Taking God’s Name in Vain: Job offered sacrifices for his children, fearing they might have "cursed God in their hearts" [Job 1:5].

4th: The Sabbath: Instituted at creation when God "blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" [Genesis 2:1-3]. Later, before reaching Sinai, God tested Israel's obedience to the Sabbath through the gathering of manna [Exodus 16:4, 23-30].

5th: Honoring Parents: Explicitly mentioned as a reason for God’s blessing on Abraham's descendants [Genesis 26:34-35] and reflected in the respect shown by Jacob to his parents [Genesis 28:6-7].

6th: Prohibition of Murder: God held Cain accountable for killing Abel, labeling it a sin [Genesis 4:8-15]. After the Flood, God established a formal decree: "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed" [Genesis 9:5-6].

7th: Prohibition of Adultery: Joseph refused Potiphar’s wife, calling the act a "great evil and sin against God" [Genesis 39:7-9]. Pharaoh and Abimelech were also warned by God regarding taking another man's wife [Genesis 12:17-20, 20:3-9].

8th: Prohibition of Stealing: Jacob and Laban recognized theft as a punishable offense [Genesis 30:33, 31:32], and Joseph’s brothers understood the gravity of being accused of stealing a silver cup [Genesis 44:8-9].

9th: Prohibition of Lying: Cain was punished for his dishonest response to God [Genesis 4:9-12], and various "adultery narratives" involve rebukes for lying about marital status [Genesis 12:10-20, 20:1-5].

10th: Prohibition of Coveting: The fall of humanity began with Eve "coveting" the forbidden fruit [Genesis 3:6].

Other Divine Laws & Statutes

Clean and Unclean Animals: Noah was commanded to take seven pairs of "clean" animals and only two of "unclean" animals into the Ark [Genesis 7:2].

Dietary Restrictions (Blood): God forbade Noah and his descendants from eating meat with its life-blood still in it [Genesis 9:4].

Tithing: Abraham gave a tenth of his spoils to Melchizedek [Genesis 14:20], and Jacob vowed to give God a tenth of everything he received [Genesis 28:22].

Circumcision: Established as a covenant sign for Abraham and his descendants [Genesis 17:10-14].

Sacrificial System: Cain and Abel offered sacrifices [Genesis 4:3-5], and the patriarchs regularly built altars to offer burnt offerings to God [Genesis 8:20, 12:7, 26:25].

Abraham's Legacy: Scripture explicitly summarizes this era of pre-Sinai law in Genesis 26:5, where God states that Abraham "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws".

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Ten Commandments Before Sinai

1st & 2nd: No Other Gods / Idolatry: Jacob commanded his household to "put away the foreign gods" [Genesis 35:2-4], and he understood that stealing household idols was a sin [Genesis 31:30-35].

3rd: Taking God’s Name in Vain: Job offered sacrifices for his children, fearing they might have "cursed God in their hearts" [Job 1:5].

4th: The Sabbath: Instituted at creation when God "blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" [Genesis 2:1-3]. Later, before reaching Sinai, God tested Israel's obedience to the Sabbath through the gathering of manna [Exodus 16:4, 23-30].

5th: Honoring Parents: Explicitly mentioned as a reason for God’s blessing on Abraham's descendants [Genesis 26:34-35] and reflected in the respect shown by Jacob to his parents [Genesis 28:6-7].

6th: Prohibition of Murder: God held Cain accountable for killing Abel, labeling it a sin [Genesis 4:8-15]. After the Flood, God established a formal decree: "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed" [Genesis 9:5-6].

7th: Prohibition of Adultery: Joseph refused Potiphar’s wife, calling the act a "great evil and sin against God" [Genesis 39:7-9]. Pharaoh and Abimelech were also warned by God regarding taking another man's wife [Genesis 12:17-20, 20:3-9].

8th: Prohibition of Stealing: Jacob and Laban recognized theft as a punishable offense [Genesis 30:33, 31:32], and Joseph’s brothers understood the gravity of being accused of stealing a silver cup [Genesis 44:8-9].

9th: Prohibition of Lying: Cain was punished for his dishonest response to God [Genesis 4:9-12], and various "adultery narratives" involve rebukes for lying about marital status [Genesis 12:10-20, 20:1-5].

10th: Prohibition of Coveting: The fall of humanity began with Eve "coveting" the forbidden fruit [Genesis 3:6].

Other Divine Laws & Statutes

Clean and Unclean Animals: Noah was commanded to take seven pairs of "clean" animals and only two of "unclean" animals into the Ark [Genesis 7:2].

Dietary Restrictions (Blood): God forbade Noah and his descendants from eating meat with its life-blood still in it [Genesis 9:4].

Tithing: Abraham gave a tenth of his spoils to Melchizedek [Genesis 14:20], and Jacob vowed to give God a tenth of everything he received [Genesis 28:22].

Circumcision: Established as a covenant sign for Abraham and his descendants [Genesis 17:10-14].

Sacrificial System: Cain and Abel offered sacrifices [Genesis 4:3-5], and the patriarchs regularly built altars to offer burnt offerings to God [Genesis 8:20, 12:7, 26:25].

Abraham's Legacy: Scripture explicitly summarizes this era of pre-Sinai law in Genesis 26:5, where God states that Abraham "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws".

Excellent post