Are We Reigning Now Or Not?

[Dedicated Mind]

1 Corinthians 4:7-14

King James Version (KJV)

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.


now compared to ephesians:
Ephesians 1:17-23

King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 2:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


in corinthians we are called to suffer and paul mocks those who claim to be reigning. in ephesians we are presently reigning in christ. which is it?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

1 Corinthians 4:7-14

King James Version (KJV)

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.


now compared to ephesians:
Ephesians 1:17-23

King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 2:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


in corinthians we are called to suffer and paul mocks those who claim to be reigning. in ephesians we are presently reigning in christ. which is it?

I think you should first start with a translation easier to read

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Does this really say we are reigning NOW? Did you consider it also says "raised us up together"?

Did you ever read where the bible says He has given us Eternal Life? Yet we all die. It doesn't mean we reign NOW but the promise is a now promise fulfilled in the future.

Why do you try so hard to discredit the word of God?

It doesn't mean we are reigning NOW



2. The Past for the Future

This is put when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. This is very common in the Divine prophetic utterances: where, though the sense is literally future, it is regarded and spoken of as though it were already accomplished in the Divine purpose and determination: the figure is to show the absolute certainty of the things spoken of....


John 3:13.—“No man hath ascended up into the heaven”: i.e. ascend up, or can ascend.

John 4:38.—“Other men laboured, and ye have entered (i.e. shall enter, or are entered) into their labours.”

Rom. 8:30.—The called are spoken of as already (in the Divine purpose) in Christ, justified, yea, even glorified.

Eph. 2:6.—Believers are regarded as already raised from the dead and seated in the heavenly places.

Heb. 2:7.—“Thou hast made (i.e., Thou wilt make) Him for a little while less than the angels.” For this was a prophecy spoken of Christ long before, in Ps. 8

Heb. 3:14.—“We have been made (i.e., we shall become) partakers of Christ, if we hold,” etc.

p 520 Heb. 12:22.—“But ye have come (i.e., shall come) unto Mount Zion,” etc.

Bullinger, E. W. (1898). Figures of speech used in the Bible (518). London; New York: Eyre & Spottiswoode; E. & J. B. Young & Co.

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think you should first start with a translation easier to read

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Does this really say we are reigning NOW? Did you consider it also says "raised us up together"?

Did you ever read where the bible says He has given us Eternal Life? Yet we all die. It doesn't mean we reign NOW but the promise is a now promise fulfilled in the future.

Why do you try so hard to discredit the word of God?

It doesn't mean we are reigning NOW



2. The Past for the Future

This is put when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. This is very common in the Divine prophetic utterances: where, though the sense is literally future, it is regarded and spoken of as though it were already accomplished in the Divine purpose and determination: the figure is to show the absolute certainty of the things spoken of....


John 3:13.—“No man hath ascended up into the heaven”: i.e. ascend up, or can ascend.

John 4:38.—“Other men laboured, and ye have entered (i.e. shall enter, or are entered) into their labours.”

Rom. 8:30.—The called are spoken of as already (in the Divine purpose) in Christ, justified, yea, even glorified.

Eph. 2:6.—Believers are regarded as already raised from the dead and seated in the heavenly places.

Heb. 2:7.—“Thou hast made (i.e., Thou wilt make) Him for a little while less than the angels.” For this was a prophecy spoken of Christ long before, in Ps. 8

Heb. 3:14.—“We have been made (i.e., we shall become) partakers of Christ, if we hold,” etc.

p 520 Heb. 12:22.—“But ye have come (i.e., shall come) unto Mount Zion,” etc.

Bullinger, E. W. (1898). Figures of speech used in the Bible (518). London; New York: Eyre & Spottiswoode; E. & J. B. Young & Co.

Prax, i am not attacking the word of god. i am reading an intro to the nt by bart ehrman and he is applying historical critical method. i am just trying to learn what the other side is saying and posting interesting criticisms to learn others opinion. my view of scripture has become more critical and i think that our faith should be able to withstand close scrutiny. why would you accept blindly the traditional views concerning scripture without taking into consideration personal motivation which is universal? unfortunately there are few that respond to these threads. i wish i could interact with believers that have a critical approach to the scripture instead of blind faith. god gave us a mind for a reason.

as to the issue of reigning, i think it is a clear contradiction unless you say paul meant we do not reign physically in corinthians but we reign spiritually in ephesians. critical scholars use this contradiction to claim that paul did not write ephesians among other reasons like writing style and vocabulary.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

Prax, i am not attacking the word of god. i am reading an intro to the nt by bart ehrman and he is applying historical critical method. i am just trying to learn what the other side is saying and posting interesting criticisms to learn others opinion. my view of scripture has become more critical and i think that our faith should be able to withstand close scrutiny. why would you accept blindly the traditional views concerning scripture without taking into consideration personal motivation which is universal? unfortunately there are few that respond to these threads. i wish i could interact with believers that have a critical approach to the scripture instead of blind faith. god gave us a mind for a reason.

as to the issue of reigning, i think it is a clear contradiction unless you say paul meant we do not reign physically in corinthians but we reign spiritually in ephesians. critical scholars use this contradiction to claim that paul did not write ephesians among other reasons like writing style and vocabulary.

Did Ehrman say it's a contradiction?

Did you read my explanation?

It's not a contradiction. It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Did Ehrman say it's a contradiction?

Did you read my explanation?

It's not a contradiction. It's a FIGURE OF SPEECH

yes, i read your explanation. i am not saying it is not a figure of speech. ehrman is saying that paul refers to the resurrection differently in romans and corinthians (undisputed letters) from the letters of colossians and ephesians(disputed letters). compare these two passages:

Romans 6:4-8

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

4 Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For whoever has died is freed from sin. 8 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.



Colossians 2:12

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.



in romans the resurrection is future while in colossians the resurrection is present. ehrman claims these are two distinct views of the resurrection and that paul did not write ephesians and colossians because of the differing views on resurrection in addition to writing style and vocabulary differences.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

yes, i read your explanation. i am not saying it is not a figure of speech. ehrman is saying that paul refers to the resurrection differently in romans and corinthians (undisputed letters) from the letters of colossians and ephesians(disputed letters).

What was Ehrman's conclusion?

As I said, we are even said to have Eternal Life...yet we still die. Contradiction? No. Present Promise fulfilled in the future.

Salvation includes Immortality of body, yet we die, are we then not saved? No.

It's not a contradiction.

The bible is full of figures of speech like that. Here is another example, called Prolepsis

Joh 17:11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

Joh 17:12 When I was with them I kept them safe and watched over them in your name that you have given me. Not one of them was lost except the one destined for destruction, so that the scripture could be fulfilled.

Joh 17:22 The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one —

[Godsdrummer]

I think you are both coming from wrong point of view, that of a bodily resurrection.
When we realize that we are spirit beings in a physical body, and that this body must return to the earth from which it came and will not rise again. But we have a new body already prepared for us that we gain at death of this body, we can see that we do in fact reign with Christ today, and that death has been changed to life. Our soul, inner man (how ever you want to state it) has been changed, thus when this body dies our soul lives on.

The simple conclusion is that the resurrection is past, that it happened at the end, when God completed all things in 70ad. Some where we have come to think that the resurrection is going to be a physical resurrection that will be seen or understood by all.

Both Paul and Peter speak of a completly different and new tabernacle (body) of which we recieve at the death of this body. Not a regeneration of this body. Scripture is very clear that this body must return to the earth from which it came and that our soul returns to our creator.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I think you are both coming from wrong point of view, that of a bodily resurrection.
When we realize that we are spirit beings in a physical body, and that this body must return to the earth from which it came and will not rise again. But we have a new body already prepared for us that we gain at death of this body, we can see that we do in fact reign with Christ today, and that death has been changed to life.

That doesn't really have anything to do with what I've said so far about what DM believes is a contradiction between two different verses.

On the other hand, what verse says we get our new bodies when we die and not at the Resurrection? I never said anything about a bodily resurrection either so your response is confusing

Our soul, inner man (how ever you want to state it) has been changed, thus when this body dies our soul lives on.

The simple conclusion is that the resurrection is past, that it happened at the end, when God completed all things in 70ad. Some where we have come to think that the resurrection is going to be a physical resurrection that will be seen or understood by all.

You haven't explained the seeming contradiction...nor have you interacted with what I posted. I never said anything about a physical resurrection or whatever. That's all irrelevant to DMs issue of a contradiction

Both Paul and Peter speak of a completly different and new tabernacle (body) of which we recieve at the death of this body. Not a regeneration of this body. Scripture is very clear that this body must return to the earth from which it came and that our soul returns to our creator.

Im sorry brother but you don't seem to have understood the topic nor what I posted in response

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

1 Corinthians 4:7-14

King James Version (KJV)

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.


now compared to ephesians:
Ephesians 1:17-23

King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 2:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


in corinthians we are called to suffer and paul mocks those who claim to be reigning. in ephesians we are presently reigning in christ. which is it?

False dichotomy. This kind of mistake results from the failure to think categorically.

With regards to the natural plane of existence... we have yet to reign with Jesus. This will happen when He returns.

With regards to the spiritual plane... we reign, being full of His Spirit and we have all authority over the powers of Hell.

Both positions are correct within the proper context.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That doesn't really have anything to do with what I've said so far about what DM believes is a contradiction between two different verses.

On the other hand, what verse says we get our new bodies when we die and not at the Resurrection? I never said anything about a bodily resurrection either so your response is confusing

You haven't explained the seeming contradiction...nor have you interacted with what I posted. I never said anything about a physical resurrection or whatever. That's all irrelevant to DMs issue of a contradiction


Im sorry brother but you don't seem to have understood the topic nor what I posted in response

The fact is how one reads each of those passages reflects on ones point of view. I don't see them as one being future and the other being past. I read both as being present.

While I see Romans speaking of the resurrection, I see Paul speaking in Collosians as to our walking with Christ now. As at the time Paul wrote Romans the resurrection had not happened but it was to happen in their life time.

As I see the destruction of Jerusalem as the final fulfillment of all prophecy, including the resurrection of the dead saints. We are now united with Christ walking in newness of life.