The Jesus/Disciple Baptisms of the Gospels: Why?

[SDG]

John 3: 22-36

John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[i] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ[j] but am sent ahead of him.' 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.


31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]


John 4: 1-3


1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

===============================================

A few questions for my PAJC friends:

1. If baptism is necessary because we must re-enact in obedience the burial of Christ and it also remits/ washes away sin ... Why did Jesus and/or his disciples baptize prior to HIS DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION? And how could the blood be applied in these baptisms if no blood had been shed yet? Was this a pre-baptism?

------------------------------------------------

2. Notice that verse 25 of chapter 3 notes that to the Jewish believer baptism has always been traditionally viewed as a ceremonial washing ... Why do you view it as act that mitigates grace by resulting in salvation?

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3. When John the Baptist, who was filled w/ the Holy Ghost, had the opportunity to clearly answer his disciples questions about the nature of Jesus' baptism ... yet he doesn't go into the standard Water & Spirit Jesus name 3 step process of salvation doctrine ... or assert that the Jesus' baptism would cause salvation ...

but rather reiterates the same point Jesus made to Nicodemus in verse 18 of chapter 3

Jesus said:
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John said:
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]

Why didn't he give his disciples an intro to the 3 step process? But rather states that belief in the Son results in eternal life?

----------------------------------------------------

4. It seems counterproductive, under the PAJC view of salvation, for Jesus and/or his believers to baptize believers years prior to the outpouring of the baptism of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 ... no? Wouldn't these "pre-baptized" saints' souls be in jeopardy during the interim having not been "filled" because they hadn't spoken in tongues yet? ? If they died w/o speaking in tongues would they fall under the old or new covenant?
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5. This one is for Elder Epley --

In the past you have asserted the keys Jesus gave to Simon Peter were the keys of Acts 2:38 salvation ... Do you think Peter officiated over any of these baptisms in John 3 and 4? Did he get the keys prior to Matthew 16 ...? If he participated in officiating in any of these baptisms did he let the "cat out of the bag" so to speak? Did he share the keys w/ the other disciples in John 3 and 4?

I need an 'on fire' PAJCer to explain these baptisms to me. Please.

[mizpeh]

Jesus and his disciples also went about preaching the gospel. What gospel do you think they preached?

Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

It couldn't have been this one:

1 Cor 15: 1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Because Christ had not died, nor been buried, nor risen from the dead.

I don't know the answer to your questions. But it would seem that John's baptism, the baptism of repentence for the remission of sins, must have been just that. If sins were remitted by John's baptism and we would assume the Jesus' baptism then it is an odd that Jesus commanded those who came to him (the healed leper)to keep the law of Moses while he was alive.

What is ceremonial washing?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Jesus and his disciples also went about preaching the gospel. What gospel do you think they preached?

Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

It couldn't have been this one:

1 Cor 15: 1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Because Christ had not died, nor been buried, nor risen from the dead.

I don't know the answer to your questions. But it would seem that John's baptism, the baptism of repentence for the remission of sins, must have been just that. If sins were remitted by John's baptism and we would assume the Jesus' baptism then it is an odd that Jesus commanded those who came to him (the healed leper)to keep the law of Moses while he was alive.

What is ceremonial washing?

1. Are you suggesting that John's baptism also caused the remission of sins?

Is it me or would asserting this bring an inherent theological contradiction to the PAJC view of salvation?

Why would some of John's disciples be re-baptized again if their sins had already been remitted under John's baptism?

Clearly, the divergence between PAJC and PCI lies partially in our answers to what baptism means and does for the believer.

------------------------------------------------------------

2. Why would it be odd that Jesus told the leper to keep the law of Moses while he was alive if Jesus himself did? Many Jewish Christians after the ascension kept it too? No?

There have been quite a few posts by Sam, FreeatLast and Ronzo on ceremonial washing, or Mikveh .... Here is one that is very informative that you read.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...?t=5989&page=2

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3. Also, Miz, What scriptures was Paul referring to in 1 Cor 15? The NT? I think not. Had the Gospels been fully circulated by then? I don't know.

These repentant believers that were baptized before Acts 2:38, had knowledge of the scriptures that the Christ would save them from their sins and acted upon the Word... Isn't this what faith is ... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The moment they put their entire trust in Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah ... even prior to Him fulfilling these things they were part of the Kingdom that had been andwas being preached ... only to be then considered disciples. Yes ... even prior to speaking in tongues.

You asked what gospel they were preaching? Are there 2 gospels? They preached that that the Kingdom of God was at hand!!! Behold the Lamb of God that takes away our sins.

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4. Perhaps the answers to the questions being posed are not as deep as we think? Maybe these believers that were "pre- baptized" were 1/2 saved? Or partially circumcised into the body?

[SDG]

For those who ask the question did Jesus baptize or did the apostles baptize [obviously commissioned to so] ... I say both did ...

the writer states so ...

John 3

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

John 4
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.


The question here is not who but why

[J-Roc]

HeadMaster Dan, it looks like you've cornered Mizpeh and are forcing her to answer some honest hard questions....I hope she passes the test.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Jesus and his disciples also went about preaching the gospel. What gospel do you think they preached?

Matt 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

It couldn't have been this one:

1 Cor 15: 1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Because Christ had not died, nor been buried, nor risen from the dead.

I don't know the answer to your questions. But it would seem that John's baptism, the baptism of repentence for the remission of sins, must have been just that. If sins were remitted by John's baptism and we would assume the Jesus' baptism then it is an odd that Jesus commanded those who came to him (the healed leper)to keep the law of Moses while he was alive.

What is ceremonial washing?

John's baptism was a baptism unto repentance. The apostle's baptism was a baptism unto salvation. Therein lies the difference.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

John 3: 22-36

John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[i] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."

27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ[j] but am sent ahead of him.' 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.


31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]


John 4: 1-3


1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

===============================================

A few questions for my PAJC friends:

1. If baptism is necessary because we must re-enact in obedience the burial of Christ and it also remits/ washes away sin ... Why did Jesus and/or his disciples baptize prior to HIS DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION? And how could the blood be applied in these baptisms if no blood had been shed yet? Was this a pre-baptism?

------------------------------------------------

2. Notice that verse 25 of chapter 3 notes that to the Jewish believer baptism has always been traditionally viewed as a ceremonial washing ... Why do you view it as act that mitigates grace by resulting in salvation?

------------------------------------------------------

3. When John the Baptist, who was filled w/ the Holy Ghost, had the opportunity to clearly answer his disciples questions about the nature of Jesus' baptism ... yet he doesn't go into the standard Water & Spirit Jesus name 3 step process of salvation doctrine ... or assert that the Jesus' baptism would cause salvation ...

but rather reiterates the same point Jesus made to Nicodemus in verse 18 of chapter 3

Jesus said:
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John said:
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]

Why didn't he give his disciples an intro to the 3 step process? But rather states that belief in the Son results in eternal life?

----------------------------------------------------

4. It seems counterproductive, under the PAJC view of salvation, for Jesus and/or his believers to baptize believers years prior to the outpouring of the baptism of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 ... no? Wouldn't these "pre-baptized" saints' souls be in jeopardy during the interim having not been "filled" because they hadn't spoken in tongues yet? ? If they died w/o speaking in tongues would they fall under the old or new covenant?
--------------------------------------------------------

5. This one is for Elder Epley --

In the past you have asserted the keys Jesus gave to Simon Peter were the keys of Acts 2:38 salvation ... Do you think Peter officiated over any of these baptisms in John 3 and 4? Did he get the keys prior to Matthew 16 ...? If he participated in officiating in any of these baptisms did he let the "cat out of the bag" so to speak? Did he share the keys w/ the other disciples in John 3 and 4?

I need an 'on fire' PAJCer to explain these baptisms to me. Please.

I am happy to answer these simple uncomplicated questions to clear them up for you. I would have answered sooner if you had asked.
1. Remission of sins were in veiw. Jesus was to be the sin bearer through His vicarious death-burial-resurrection thus it for-shadowed it. However this destroys your misconception of "for" the remission they were baptized NOT because their sins were ALREADY remitted they were baptizing looking UNTO the remission of sins accomplished at Calvary.
2. The ceremonial washing is YOUR words NOT the words of scripture. Baptism fulfils righteousness Jesus said Mt. 3:15. John's baptism was NOT a ceremonial washing.
3. The term is BelievETH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Noah believed and built and ark, Moses believed and observed passover ETC. BelieVETH is to DO what is required of faith NOT FAITH ALONE!
4. The Testament is NOT in force until the Testator (Heb. 9:15-16) thus if they had died before recieving the the HGB they would have been judged like every OT saint. Surely you can do better than this?
5. I have no idea the Bible does not say??? Makes no difference Jesus did give him the keys much to your dismay and when the time came he used them. I do know how he baptized after Pentecost and I know Who gave him the instructions and he obeyed the command and did it for remission of sins in Jesus Name.

NOW FOR YOU: Since the sins of those baptized under John & Jesus were NOT baptized BECAUSE THEIR SINS HAD ALREADY BEEN REMITTED why would you believe a SILLY unbiblical doctrine like that???????????? EVERYONE them were baptized LOOKING FORWARD UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS ACCOMPLISHED BY HIS DEATH-BURIAL-RESURRECTION?

SHOUT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:c hoir

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

1. Are you suggesting that John's baptism also caused the remission of sins?

Is it me or would asserting this bring an inherent theological contradiction to the PAJC view of salvation?

Why would some of John's disciples be re-baptized again if their sins had already been remitted under John's baptism?

Clearly, the divergence between PAJC and PCI lies partially in our answers to what baptism means and does for the believer.

------------------------------------------------------------

2. Why would it be odd that Jesus told the leper to keep the law of Moses while he was alive if Jesus himself did? Many Jewish Christians after the ascension kept it too? No?

There have been quite a few posts by Sam, FreeatLast and Ronzo on ceremonial washing, or Mikveh .... Here is one that is very informative that you read.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/sho...?t=5989&page=2

-----------------------------------------------------------------

3. Also, Miz, What scriptures was Paul referring to in 1 Cor 15? The NT? I think not. Had the Gospels been fully circulated by then? I don't know.

These repentant believers that were baptized before Acts 2:38, had knowledge of the scriptures that the Christ would save them from their sins and acted upon the Word... Isn't this what faith is ... the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The moment they put their entire trust in Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah ... even prior to Him fulfilling these things they were part of the Kingdom that had been andwas being preached ... only to be then considered disciples. Yes ... even prior to speaking in tongues.

You asked what gospel they were preaching? Are there 2 gospels? They preached that that the Kingdom of God was at hand!!! Behold the Lamb of God that takes away our sins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Perhaps the answers to the questions being posed are not as deep as we think? Maybe these believers that were "pre- baptized" were 1/2 saved? Or partially circumcised into the body?

2. BECAUSE THE NAME OF JESUS WAS NOT INVOKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

HeadMaster Dan, it looks like you've cornered Mizpeh and are forcing her to answer some honest hard questions....I hope she passes the test.

What hard questions???????????? I have had kindergardners ask harder questions than these.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

What hard questions???????????? I have had kindergardners ask harder questions than these.

The hardest question to answer is "Why?", so yes, I believe kindergartners have asked harder questions. LOL!