T.U.L.I.P. or W.E.E.D.S.?

SOURCE

TULIP

Total Depravity

Mankind is spiritually dead and
under the dominion of sin
(Ephesians 2:1-3; John 8:34).
None can of his own will come
to Christ for salvation (John
5:40; 6:65). None has faith
unless God graciously bestows
it (Ephesians 2:8).


Unconditional Election
God the Father has graciously
chosen and predestined to
salvation some of our fallen
(2 Thessalonians 2:13;
Ephesians 1:3-6). His choice
was in no way conditioned
upon foreseen good or merit in
the chosen ones. (John 15:16).

Limited Atonement
Jesus Christ died as the substitute
of God's elect, forever redeeming
and forgiving them (Isaiah 53:4-6,8b;
Ephesians 1:7). He did not die for any
who will die in unbelief
(John 10:11,26),

Irresistible Grace
God will not be thwarted in
His purpose of salvation
(Daniel 4:35). Every one of
His chosen and redeemed sinners
will be brought to saving faith in
Jesus Christ (John 6:37,45; Romans 8:29f).

Perseverance of the Saints*
God preserves in salvation all
believers in Christ, and none
will ever perish (John 3:16;
10:28f). And He enables them
to persevere to the end, so
none will be lost (Jeremiah 32.,40;
Romans 8:35-39)

WEEDS


Will of Man Is Free
Mankind is influenced by sin, but
not under its dominion, as all yet
have free will and the ability to
determine their own destiny.
Anyone can of his own free will
come to Christ for salvation. All
men have faith, but not all will to
exercise it.
Election Is Conditional
Election to salvation involves both
the sinner choosing God and God
choosing the sinner. God's choice
was conditioned upon man's
choice, as God chose in eternity
past those whom He foresaw in
time believing in Jesus Christ for
salvation.

Every Man Is Redeemed
Jesus Christ died for every one,
paying the price of redemption
for them all. But this does not
guarantee their forgiveness, as many
of His redeemed will be
eventually damned because of unbelief.


Denial Confounds Grace
The sovereignty of God does not
extend to His salvation, as man's
will can here thwart God's purpose.
God is trying to save every sinner,
but He is helpless to save any
sinner who will not let Him.

Some Will Lose Salvation
God cannot preserve in salvation
those who of their own free will
refuse to be preserved, Those
believers who do not remain
faithful to the very end will lose
their salvation, "fall from grace,"
and eventually perish.


*For the record, I believe that "salvation" in this context occurs at the point of the believer's "glorification" (being changed from corruptible to incorruptible, going home to be with the Lord) and, in that context, God does indeed preserve His saints.

[mfblume]

Since weeds are less tolerable than tulips, I suppose that PROVES beyond the shadow of a doubt that predestination and election of the individual is the only true doctrine.

lol

[mfblume]

God chooses who will be saved and who will not before anyone is born.

All people are predetermined as to who will be saved despite their will or volition.

Redemption is a sham since God does not allow us to choose to be saved.

Because God does not allow us to choose salvation, He is a monster.

Anyone who is predestined to be saved alone can be saved.

God chooses that certain folks will go to hell without their input whatsoever.

Everyone is really only a robot, since we are programmed for damnation or salvation.

VERSUS....

The Word teaches that God will sthat all men be saved, making it impossible for there to be a predetermined election of the individual.

Redemption is offered to everyone, and anyone can be saved accordingto their own choice.

Under no circumstances can anyone continue in sin after salvation and maintain their salvation.

The Bible teaches that nations, and not individuals, were predestined. Any individuals noted were representative of their NATION or the progenitors of a nation that actually experienced controlled events by God. In Romans 9, Esau never served Jacob, but Esau's descendents served Jacob's descendents, showing the issue is NATIONAL. Pharaoh stood for Egypt, not for himself.

However many people decide to serve God can do so outside any thought that they were not allowed to choose it themselves.

Originally Posted by mfblume

God chooses who will be saved and who will not before anyone is born.

All people are predetermined as to who will be saved despite their will or volition.

Redemption is a sham since God does not allow us to choose to be saved.

Because God does not allow us to choose salvation, He is a monster.

Anyone who is predestined to be saved alone can be saved.

God chooses that certain folks will go to hell without their input whatsoever.

Everyone is really only a robot, since we are programmed for damnation or salvation.

VERSUS....

The Word teaches that God will sthat all men be saved, making it impossible for there to be a predetermined election of the individual.

Redemption is offered to everyone, and anyone can be saved accordingto their own choice.

Under no circumstances can anyone continue in sin after salvation and maintain their salvation.

The Bible teaches that nations, and not individuals, were predestined. Any individuals noted were representative of their NATION or the progenitors of a nation that actually experienced controlled events by God. In Romans 9, Esau never served Jacob, but Esau's descendents served Jacob's descendents, showing the issue is NATIONAL. Pharaoh stood for Egypt, not for himself.

However many people decide to serve God can do so outside any thought that they were not allowed to choose it themselves.

This would be great if it ACCURATELY represented the two doctrines.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Chan

This would be great if it ACCURATELY represented the two doctrines.

Your statement might fly if you proved it.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Your statement might fly if you proved it.

Pretty witty today huh?!

Originally Posted by mfblume

God chooses who will be saved and who will not before anyone is born.

No, what Calvinism teaches is that God has chosen before the foundation of the world those who would be saved. Keep in mind that all humans are born dead in trespasses and sins - being bound for the lake of fire is the default condition of every human. If God did not choose to intervene on behalf of some, no one would be saved.

All people are predetermined as to who will be saved despite their will or volition.

Humans will never, on their own, want to be saved. God changes the will of the elect and causes them to want to be saved.

Redemption is a sham since God does not allow us to choose to be saved.

Redemption is not a sham because redemption refers to the action of the redeemer and not the redeemed. God PURCHASED His elect. We are God's creation and, as such, we have NO RIGHTS in the matter. So-called "free will" cannot mean we have the RIGHT to choose because then God would have no right to punish us for exercising our right to choose against Him. Humans do indeed have the capacity (capability) to choose against God (we're all born doing exactly that) but not the right to choose. Further, if God did not specifically interfere with human will, no human would ever choose God.

Because God does not allow us to choose salvation, He is a monster.

Humans will NEVER, on their own, WANT to choose salvation. Who do you think you are to claim that you have the RIGHT to choose whether or not you want to ACCEPT (something a superior does to an inferior) God?

Anyone who is predestined to be saved alone can be saved.

Only those predestined to be saved will even want to be saved. Jesus said that all those whom the Father has given to Him WILL come to Him. Those who do not come to Jesus are those whom the Father has not given to Jesus.

God chooses that certain folks will go to hell without their input whatsoever.

No, God only chooses those whom He is going to save and that choice has nothing to do with the particular individuals involved. All humans, if left to themselves, if God does not specifically interfere with their will, would go to that eternal lake of fire. NO HUMAN ON HIS OWN WILL EVER CHOOSE GOD.

Everyone is really only a robot, since we are programmed for damnation or salvation.

Everyone is BORN bound for that eternal lake of fire, BORN dead in trespasses and sins. If God did not choose to interfere with the will of some humans, no one would ever be saved. In a sense, we are just robots because we're all born with a sinful nature and born slaves to sin. Because of Adam's sin, we're all born "programmed" to sin.

VERSUS....

The Word teaches that God wills that all men be saved, making it impossible for there to be a predetermined election of the individual.

Does He will that all men be saved or that all of His elect be saved? The "any" in that passage in Peter's epistle ("God is not willing that any should perish") applies only to the "you" in that passage. If it was God's WILL that all men be saved then all men WOULD be saved, since God said He would accomplish ALL His purpose. Since there are those who are going to be cast into the lake of fire, it is clear that God does not WILL that all men be saved. Also, if God WILLED all men to be saved, Jesus would have no basis for saying "All those whom the Father has given Me WILL come to Me" (emphasis mine). Then, of course, there are the vessels God has fitted for destruction.

Redemption is offered to everyone, and anyone can be saved accordingto their own choice.

God does indeed command all men everywhere to repent. But the only ones who will ever CHOOSE to be saved are the elect, those with whose wills God has specifically chosen to interfere so that they will want to be saved. Left to themselves, no human being will ever want to be saved.

Under no circumstances can anyone continue in sin after salvation and maintain their salvation.

The Calvinist would agree with this statement.

The Bible teaches that nations, and not individuals, were predestined. Any individuals noted were representative of their NATION or the progenitors of a nation that actually experienced controlled events by God. In Romans 9, Esau never served Jacob, but Esau's descendents served Jacob's descendents, showing the issue is NATIONAL. Pharaoh stood for Egypt, not for himself.

Are you so sure predestination is for nations and not individuals? Further, aren't WE a "holy nation" according to Peter?

However many people decide to serve God can do so outside any thought that they were not allowed to choose it themselves.

No one will EVER decide to serve God on their own because it is their WILL to sin, their WILL to rebel against God.

Your doctrine makes man sovereign over God and says that man has the power to thwart God!

[mfblume]

No, what Calvinism teaches is that God has chosen before the foundation of the world those who would be saved.

What is the difference? Let's not split hairs. Before the world is before one is born, bro.

Humans will never, on their own, want to be saved. God changes the will of the elect and causes them to want to be saved.

If that is so, then why do we read God wills that no one perish? That would mean there is no one who will perish whatsoever if we have no choice.

Redemption is not a sham because redemption refers to the action of the redeemer and not the redeemed. God PURCHASED His elect. We are God's creation and, as such, we have NO RIGHTS in the matter. So-called "free will" cannot mean we have the RIGHT to choose because then God would have no right to punish us for exercising our right to choose against Him. Humans do indeed have the capacity (capability) to choose against God (we're all born doing exactly that) but not the right to choose. Further, if God did not specifically interfere with human will, no human would ever choose God.

That wreaks havoc of all common sense. To say that we are born to choose to not serve God, is to remove all choice from the matter.

Humans will NEVER, on their own, WANT to choose salvation.

I disagree.

Who do you think you are to claim that you have the RIGHT to choose whether or not you want to ACCEPT (something a superior does to an inferior) God?

I think I am a creation of God that has will and is not a mockery to the thought of being redeemed without my volition. Fact remains, Gdo would be a monster if we could not choose. You claim he wills that all men not perish, but yet at the same time wills that some will perish, To will that some perish is monstrous.

Only those predestined to be saved will even want to be saved.

Big difference! (not)

Jesus said that all those whom the Father has given to Him WILL come to Him. Those who do not come to Jesus are those whom the Father has not given to Jesus.

You fail to ascertain the thoughts of Romans 8 where we read FIRST that "them who love God" are mentioned before we read about predestination.

Rom 8:28-29 KJV And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The above reads in this order, which is all important to the issue: First God mentions those who love Him. And then verse 29 says that THESE ONES WHOM GOD FOREKNEW, and NOT FOREORDAINED, were predestinated. Foreknowing who would love Him is much different than predestinating whether or not some would love Him. He FOREKNEW those who would choose to love Him, and those whom He foreknew would do so are ALONE predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ.

FOREKNOWING is not PREDESTINATING.

No, God only chooses those whom He is going to save and that choice has nothing to do with the particular individuals involved. All humans, if left to themselves, if God does not specifically interfere with their will, would go to that eternal lake of fire. NO HUMAN ON HIS OWN WILL EVER CHOOSE GOD.

You avoided the obvious that I pointed out. If God wills certain ones be saved, then he will certain ones be lost. You can make it SOUND nice by avoiding the negative, but it is still there. He wills that some go to hell in your doctrine. Maybe you do not "look at it that way", but it is the case.

Everyone is BORN bound for that eternal lake of fire, BORN dead in trespasses and sins. If God did not choose to interfere with the will of some humans, no one would ever be saved. In a sense, we are just robots because we're all born with a sinful nature and born slaves to sin. Because of Adam's sin, we're all born "programmed" to sin.

More than that, you believe we're robots because we're programmed to sin, and robots because we do not even have any input in whether or not God will change that.

It's worse than robots, it's a lottery from our perspective!

Does He will that all men be saved or that all of His elect be saved?

He says NOT ANY, period. No "elect" qualifier.

The "any" in that passage in Peter's epistle ("God is not willing that any should perish") applies only to the "you" in that passage. If it was God's WILL that all men be saved then all men WOULD be saved, since God said He would accomplish ALL His purpose.

That is circular reasoning. You claim it cannot mean everyone since you already believe he predestinates so many. The text does not say that, though.

Since there are those who are going to be cast into the lake of fire, it is clear that God does not WILL that all men be saved.

More circular reasoning. You say that is the case because you already believe only certain ones are considered to not perish in God's will.

Also, if God WILLED all men to be saved, Jesus would have no basis for saying "All those whom the Father has given Me WILL come to Me" (emphasis mine).

Incorrect. Jesus is speaking about foreknowing again.

Then, of course, there are the vessels God has fitted for destruction.

But why? Romans 1 clearly states that God saw sinners' refusal to glorify God, and THEN AFTER THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE, gave them up.

God does indeed command all men everywhere to repent.

Which would be a joke since you would have God slipping His hand to his mouth to hide his words to Gabriel, saying, "But only those whom I choose will be blessed for this." And then God ribs Gabriel and smirks.

But the only ones who will ever CHOOSE to be saved are the elect, those with whose wills God has specifically chosen to interfere so that they will want to be saved. Left to themselves, no human being will ever want to be saved.

Wrong. God FOREKNOWS who seeks to love Him. Romans 1 says the same thing. Some choose to refuse to acknowledge God before God gives them over. Calvinism makes a sham out of the whole thing by having God give people over because they refused to acknowledge His glory after God disallows them from acknowledging His glory.

The Calvinist would agree with this statement.

WRONG. Calvinists teach that regardless of their state at death, if a soul ever truly was saved in the past, they are saved upon death. In other words, they can be sinning and yet saved.

Are you so sure predestination is for nations and not individuals? Further, aren't WE a "holy nation" according to Peter?

And that is driving home my point! THE NATION is going to be saved, but the individual must be in that nation of the church.

No one will EVER decide to serve God on their own because it is their WILL to sin, their WILL to rebel against God.

That is not true just because you say it is. Show me bible.

Your doctrine makes man sovereign over God and says that man has the power to thwart God!

Nonsense. My doctrine gives due dignity to God and does not make Him a fool to wait for someone to either refuse or reject Him before He gives them over to a reprobate mind, all because God actually disallowed any to acknowledge his glory to begin with! He watches to see what a person does while at the same time already made the person do something, in your view.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, what Calvinism teaches is that God has chosen before the foundation of the world those who would be saved. Keep in mind that all humans are born dead in trespasses and sins - being bound for the lake of fire is the default condition of every human. If God did not choose to intervene on behalf of some, no one would be saved.

God has intervened on behalf of all, I reject the Calvinist exclusiveness.

No, God only chooses those whom He is going to save and that choice has nothing to do with the particular individuals involved. All humans, if left to themselves, if God does not specifically interfere with their will, would go to that eternal lake of fire. NO HUMAN ON HIS OWN WILL EVER CHOOSE GOD.

So, God has specifically interfered with the destiny of the creation, (Romans 5.10) For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Since weeds are less tolerable than tulips, I suppose that PROVES beyond the shadow of a doubt that predestination and election of the individual is the only true doctrine.

lol

Now, now, you know that weeds are nothing more than flowers someone doesn't want in his yard. I didn't come up with the acronyms or the explanations.