If there were no heaven....

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Well Lennon asked a similar question didn't he?

Now I know OA was just "musing" but if I imagine no heaven, hell etc, than I also bring into question whether Jesus loves me or died for me. I know it's true because He declares it so, not because I have a warm emotional attachment to Jesus.

Would i give my life for Jesus if there were no afterlife to enjoy his presence in? That is a most difficult question, because it changes the meaning of the cross as well... "Should not perish but have everlasting life"

Thanks. I saw the correlation with the song but I wasn't real sure what you were stating with your words.

How would you feel if Jesus' death on the cross did just that... that we "should not perish but have everlasting life"? Meaning... if we lived our life according to God's will and way then we would live forever with God. But if we didn't we would not experience everlasting life and would simply die and there would be nothing else.

If I am prying... please disregard my question. I am certainly not meaning to. As for myself. I still find that valuable. Living eternally versus living this life isn't a big plus that I can comprehend. But to live eternally with God is a major plus.

Although, as I have said before in this thread, life experience has shown me that, no matter what, this is just the best life. God, as it turns out, is exceedingly wise and I love to learn and follow His ways.

[Hoovie]

Well yes. I agree. I have serious doubts about taking the imagery of everlasting fire and utter darkness literally anyway. At least at the same time... It seems senseless. I think there must be symbolism involved with that language. Still yet, being separated from Jesus "forever" would be the greatest travesty known to mankind.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Thanks. I saw the correlation with the song but I wasn't real sure what you were stating with your words.

How would you feel if Jesus' death on the cross did just that... that we "should not perish but have everlasting life"? Meaning... if we lived our life according to God's will and way then we would live forever with God. But if we didn't we would not experience everlasting life and would simply die and there would be nothing else.

If I am prying... please disregard my question. I am certainly not meaning to. As for myself. I still find that valuable. Living eternally versus living this life isn't a big plus that I can comprehend. But to live eternally with God is a major plus.

Although, as I have said before in this thread, life experience has shown me that, no matter what, this is just the best life. God, as it turns out, is exceedingly wise and I love to learn and follow His ways.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

I don't agree with the fire and brimstone concept of hell, and I don't agree with the literal gates of pearl and streets of gold concept of heaven. So I can't think I'd change the way I lived if the promises of heaven and hell didn't exist. I'd be happy living the way I do even if I didn't believe in God, much less heaven and hell.

D4T, there was a time that I preached and lived standards of modesty and holiness. I thought those were absolutely right, and judged others by them. I don't follow some of those outward standards now, but it wasn't because I had the opportunity to circumvent them. I was at the store, and someone from my former church ripped into a clerk. The clerk was near tears; she had only been doing her job. When I stepped up to the counter, she glanced at me and pulled away with fear and hurt in her eyes, thinking I'd have the same nasty attitude that she'd just been subject to and had probably seen many times before.

If what I wear hurts my ability to reach out to people who are lost or hurting, even if it's considered "holy" and "modest" in an ultra-conservative environment, is it pleasing to God? After a lot of prayer, discussion, and study, I decided that in my situation it wasn't.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Well yes. I agree. I have serious doubts about taking the imagery of everlasting fire and utter darkness literally anyway. At least at the same time... It seems senseless. I think there must be symbolism involved with that language. Still yet, being separated from Jesus "forever" would be the greatest travesty known to mankind.

Well said, Steve!

[OneAccord]

Yes. The answer is "Yes". I'd want to live my life for God even if there was no heaven to gain or hell to shun. Well, at least thats what my answer should be. The blessings he has bestowed on us down thru the years should be enough to cause us love Him even if there is no afterlife. His dying on the cross to redeem us should be enough to warrant our undying love for Him. So, yes, I'd serve Him anyway. Well, at least thats what my answer should be.

[Cindy]

I think we all would like to think so. But because we are believers we can't really answer the question can we?

[Michael The Disciple]

Of course I would not be a Christian if there were no Heaven or Hell. I dont believe anyone would. Paul said if there were no eternal life we are of all men most miserable.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Of course I would not be a Christian if there were no Heaven or Hell. I dont believe anyone would. Paul said if there were no eternal life we are of all men most miserable.

I don't think that is what is being said in that scripture. Jesus died to give us life... and that more abundantly.

What God is to us IN THIS LIFE is a blessing. It brings peace to THIS LIFE. It brings hope TO THIS LIFE. To know that God brought these things to THIS LIFE and yet didn't provide for an eternal dose of it would still leave us with the hope and the peace that God loved us and cared for us. Perhaps an eternal existence was not possible for us... he still gave us a better way to live and a better life.

But the scripture is still there. And taken in it's context it does, indeed, appear to be talking about whether there is or is not an afterlife. \

The term that was translated "most miserable" could also be interpreted as "to be pitied". I wonder if that might have been a better translation. It certainly fits.

But... taking it as it is written lets look at the context.

The chapter is talking about Jesus having risen from the dead and that if there is no resurrection from the dead then Christ is not raised and if Christ is not raised then the apostles have, then, given a false witness for God.

If Christ be not risen then our preaching is vain... your faith is vain. In a nutshell...

People were saying that there is no resurrection. Paul is telling them that our entire salvation pivots on Jesus raising from the dead. Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection. If there is no resurrection then Christ did not raise from the dead and if Christ did not raise from the dead then our preaching is in vain... your faith is in vain... the whole thing is a lie.

So he isn't saying that without a hope of eternity we are miserable. He is saying that the entire hope of our salvation rests upon the concept of resurrection and if there is no resurrection then there is no resurrected Christ and if there is no resurrected Christ then we have no hope and are miserable (or even so... to be pitied)

This scripture is way too often taken out of it's context in my opinion.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I think we all would like to think so. But because we are believers we can't really answer the question can we?

It's quite the conundrum isn't it?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by missourimary

I don't agree with the fire and brimstone concept of hell, and I don't agree with the literal gates of pearl and streets of gold concept of heaven. So I can't think I'd change the way I lived if the promises of heaven and hell didn't exist. I'd be happy living the way I do even if I didn't believe in God, much less heaven and hell.

D4T, there was a time that I preached and lived standards of modesty and holiness. I thought those were absolutely right, and judged others by them. I don't follow some of those outward standards now, but it wasn't because I had the opportunity to circumvent them. I was at the store, and someone from my former church ripped into a clerk. The clerk was near tears; she had only been doing her job. When I stepped up to the counter, she glanced at me and pulled away with fear and hurt in her eyes, thinking I'd have the same nasty attitude that she'd just been subject to and had probably seen many times before.

If what I wear hurts my ability to reach out to people who are lost or hurting, even if it's considered "holy" and "modest" in an ultra-conservative environment, is it pleasing to God? After a lot of prayer, discussion, and study, I decided that in my situation it wasn't.

Great post.

Sometimes I put on Korous Cologne. Do you know why? My wife likes it.
Sometimes I wear certain clothes. Why? Because my wife likes it.
There are certain things I never do... or never say... or never wear... Do you know why? My wife doesn't like it.

I don't live my life by... will she divorce me if I do this or that (Equal to will this send me to hell etc).

I live my life by... I think she would like that.

The same with God. I don't live my life by what will send me to hell or what won't. I live my life by doing what I do and saying what I say with a smile and thinking... I think He would like this. I think He would be pleased with that.

It is such a nicer life isn't it?