AFF is a BLACK HOLE!

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Appearently the way to be enlightened is to deny the inspiration of scripture, treating it as a buffet. Deny God's account of the creation of the universe, earth, mankind, flood, languages, miracles of the Exodus, walls of Jereicho, etc, but of course accept the virgin birth (if you still do) and the ressurection (how convenient). Yep that makes one wise.

Hit the straw man a bit harder to see if he has any more stuffing in it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Hit the straw man a bit harder to see if he has any more stuffing in it.

Explain. Pel has made it clear in the past that He does not accept the things I wrote as either historical or miraculous, and that in his opinion, as he has shared again on this thread that to believe that Genesis 1-3 (amongst other chapters) is to make one appear foolish to the world, hence "unenlightened".

You were saying?

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Explain. Pel has made it clear in the past that He does not accept the things I wrote as either historical or miraculous, and that in his opinion, as he has shared again on this thread that to believe that Genesis 1-3 (amongst other chapters) is to make one appear foolish to the world, hence "unenlightened".

You were saying?

In a totally open forum like this with a wide array of views you can over-simplify any subject and make it a declarative statement when applying it to folks... which is a mistake.

There are conservatives on here (even if they are still thumb sucking after loss after loss), moderates, liberals, odd mixtures of other things with some apostolic flavoring... you name it.. its a open forum.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

In a totally open forum like this with a wide array of views you can over-simplify any subject and make it a declarative statement when applying it to folks... which is a mistake.

There are conservatives on here (even if they are still thumb sucking after loss after loss), moderates, liberals, odd mixtures of other things with some apostolic flavoring... you name it.. its a open forum.

Right, and the open forum is why I continue to stick around. I didn't make the cut in the closed forum, where one is required to not question anything other than perhaps sleeve length or TV. Such sites get stale pretty quickly, I am also appalled at the things some men post about others in a forum that is closed to the public, some of which occassionally ends up over here at the "sewer".

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Right, and the open forum is why I continue to stick around. I didn't make the cut in the closed forum, where one is required to not question anything other than perhaps sleeve length or TV. Such sites get stale pretty quickly, I am also appalled at the things some men post about others in a forum that is closed to the public, some of which occassionally ends up over here at the "sewer".

I proactively asked to be deleted from APF, and was actively deleted form JP/AMF.

Its amazing what you see when their dinner table discussions are put into written format.

[UnTraditional]

If a minister is not willing to have his preaching questioned in the light of scripture, then maybe that minister should check to see whom he is truly serving and how humble his heart is.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

If a minister is not willing to have his preaching questioned in the light of scripture, then maybe that minister should check to see whom he is truly serving and how humble his heart is.

Alot of it is peer pressure. Few UPCI ministers would dare use their real name on here for fear of it being used against them by their ministry peers.

I do give Rob McKee and a few others credit for not hiding behind a handle on here.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

A nice theory, but common sense tells us there cannot be contradicting "truths".....

I never heard the "they are all right" about the 4 interpretations. I think it is quite obvious that allegory is a very flimsy interpretation of scripture. To say nothing of mysticism. Maybe those types of beliefs attributed to Jesus telling those whose lifework was to know the law "you do err, not knowing the scriptures" and "have you not read?"

Nothing new, those who are pastors today who "know" the scriptures, don't "know" the scriptures. With their liberal theology and naturalistic explanations they have robbed the scripture of inspiration and attempt to discredit the only Word of God we posess. Without Biblical authority, there remains no authority, we can all be right in our own minds (unless we affirm that another book such as the Quaran, Book of Mormon, Vedas, etc is the Word of God).

The view which takes inspiration away from the Bible is the height of folly, and despite the criticisms of the Bible it continues to be vindicated time and time again.

Call me fundamentalist, simple, whatever, I still believe that God's word is true, and the promises are true. I have experienced this miraculously in my life and though I don't have the answers to all the "why" questions, I certainly do believe that God is able to make all things work together for good.

Word "Play" can change the entire scope of what one person believes, verses another, and unfortunately this is the problem with Scripture whether you or I like it. Over 30,000 Christian denominations prove this.

Go ahead and beat your drum of "Truth" all you want, but loop-holes in the Bible will always be found, period, bottom line.

The Jews do look at Scripture this way, and you can disagree with this all you want to, but I encourage you to go and talk to them about it. They (the Jews) are known for their intense debating methods.

So, whose Biblical authority do we follow? Yours? The guy down the street? Mine? A particular denomination? TBN? Can't you see, Jason, that this is the problem with Religion and Christianity? Everyone has "Their Take", and there isn't any real "Cut and Dry" interpretations of Scripture.

I don't see this as a problem, only the TRUTH we don't want to accept or hear. You claim you want TRUTH, but you don't want to accept the FACTS that the Bible is up for grabs when it comes to things like the Rapture, the New Birth, Modesty, Sin, what is Scripture and what isn't, Heaven and Hell, Holidays, Marriage and Divorce, and the list goes on.

You may claim hold on certain promises, as being God, but can you discern which were promises and which were the result of just plain life? Do you boldly claim God's Hand, when in fact there is a Time for everything, and that the cycle of life is destined by the person and circumstance of that person?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Word "Play" can change the entire scope of what one person believes, verses another, and unfortunately this is the problem with Scripture whether you or I like it. Over 30,000 Christian denominations prove this.

Right, however that doesn't mean there isn't truth. It speaks to mans desire to attempt to interpret the Word of God through background, personal experience, and many times personal preferences. However, even if there were 100,000 denominations, it doesn't change the fact that there is one truth. And that truth is basically that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. I do not believe any one denomination is THE church or denomination, I beleive while there are some that are heretical and damnable, there are people in nearly all denominations who will be saved.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Go ahead and beat your drum of "Truth" all you want, but loop-holes in the Bible will always be found, period, bottom line.

you are confusing different interpretations with loopholes. There is basically no document on earth that everyone agrees on. In this country we can't even agree on the meaning of the constitution. That doesn't mean that tere isn't a correct interpretaion and understanding of the consitution. If there are 30,000 incorrect interpretaions of the consitution, it is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that the writers of the consitition had a particular meaning in mind when they wrote it, and to them they felt that meaning was clear. Furthermore as for 30,000 christian denominations, the large majority agree that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. So while there are differences on non essential doctrines, which some have confused as essential such as music, the place of bptism in salvation, words spoken at baptism, tongues, standards, etc, when stripped down to the most common denominator, the one that really matters where one will spend eternity, there is amazing agreement on the message of the Bible amongst the christian denominations.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

So, whose Biblical authority do we follow? Yours? The guy down the street? Mine? A particular denomination? TBN? Can't you see, Jason, that this is the problem with Religion and Christianity? Everyone has "Their Take", and there isn't any real "Cut and Dry" interpretations of Scripture.

So in rejecting absolute truth, you are fine with subjective relativism. Your truth may not be my truth. My truth may not be yours, but it is TRUE for moe and vise versa?

NO. You may be wrong, I may be wrong, we may both be wrong, and that is possible because there is a truth. As for Biblical authority, thats why it is so important to really study the word ourselves, but as I posted earlier, too often people tend to put their personal experience, bias, and even pride into Biblical interpretation, so it is difficult to arrive at 100% understanding and agreement. I personally don't believe this will happen until Christ returns.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I don't see this as a problem, only the TRUTH we don't want to accept or hear. You claim you want TRUTH, but you don't want to accept the FACTS that the Bible is up for grabs when it comes to things like the Rapture, the New Birth, Modesty, Sin, what is Scripture and what isn't, Heaven and Hell, Holidays, Marriage and Divorce, and the list goes on.

What your asserting is a biblical buffet, pick and choose what you want, Jesus Society style. I am saying that there is truth and if I stray from that truth, whether through sincerity ro confusion, or purposeful neglect, my misunderstanding of God's Word doesn't make it any less true.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

You may claim hold on certain promises, as being God, but can you discern which were promises and which were the result of just plain life? Do you boldly claim God's Hand, when in fact there is a Time for everything, and that the cycle of life is destined by the person and circumstance of that person?

What are you talking about here? Because I claimed that the Bible is trustworhty and inspired your saying I am boldly claiming God's hand?

If the Bible ISN'T the Word of God, would you offer an alternative?

Furthermore, you as a pastor, what in the world do you preach? Do you preach out of the Bible, and if so, why? Do you also use the Quaran or the Vedas?

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

The Jews do look at Scripture this way, and you can disagree with this all you want to, but I encourage you to go and talk to them about it. They (the Jews) are known for their intense debating methods.

LOLOL Yep, having been a participant in the Men of the Bema (MOB) debates on Thursday nights, I can witness to the debating skills of Rabbis and synagogue elders.

Concerning my attempt at humor earlier. It is a true statement that where two Jews, there opinions. It works out like this:

There is your opinion, there is my opinion, and there is the opinion concerning what we agree on.

These 'discussions' can get quite intense. But, there is also healthy aspect to it. During the discussions one can make any claim they wish concerning the language, interpretation or application of scripture. At any time, anyone can challenge the person making a statement with the command, "Prove it."

At this point, the statement maker must quote (turn to) the scripture(s) that support his position, and explain how those scriptures accomplish that end. At this point a new discussion usually ensues concerning the correct interpretation/application of the referenced scriptures. The result is one must first know his scriptures and be able to defend his understanding of them - while (hopeful) remaining teachable.

Concerning the several levels of interpretation of scripture.

Yes, there a number of different levels of 'understanding'. While among the Hasidim the levels go to extreme lengths (Kabbala/Cabbala), the rule of thumb still remains that the most simple explanation is the best one.

However, to get an appreciation of this multi-level approach, including the God ordained examination of the underlying principles ('levels') of scripture, see Matthew chapters five through seven. There are also scriptural references to the Oral Law in these chapters. Also see 2 Timothy 3:8, reference to Jannes and Jambres, who are not otherwise identified in scripture.

Another problem is the failure of contemporary Bible teachers to understand the original languages and interpret our English translations according to the Hebrew (original authors) world view. This instructional failure is one of the direct causes of the multitude of Christian denominations of today - and they're still growing!.

Finally, how many time have any of us ever said, in reading a scripture I saw something in it I never saw before? Or, I got an understanding (insight, revelation) that I never got before. While the most obvious meaning of scripture is the best place to start, we should never be content to stay in the milk and pap stage. Milk is the surface, the meat is the not so obvious.