Christian Perspectives Concerning the Law

[Socialite]

[QUOTE=Apprehended;1013233]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Seems simple enough to me. He was rejoicing in his Spirit that the Father had mercifully withheld the spiritual understand of the Word but revealed them to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

No mystery here. The elite in His day rejected the very beautiful teachings of Jesus which held great spiritual depth. The wise and prudent of his day were deaf, dumb and blind. They could neither see or hear. Unable to both see and hear, they were consequently dumb. One prophet called them dumb dogs that cannot bark.



Are you ever confused or WHAT?

It seems that I am wasting my time with you. Have you read anything that I've said?

Did I say anything about the "dumb" people who hear what the Spirit is saying?

GOOD GRIEF!!!!!!


Did I say anything about an academic test? I'm beginning you are so far out in lalala land as to be totally untethered from reality.



Wrong again.

What is begun in the Spirit must continue in the Spirit. All the education in the world will not do what a moment in the presence of God will do for a man in but a few words when His understanding is opened.

The thing that Jesus was ultimately getting at was that the wise and prudent are hindered by a Spirit of pride which prevents them from true wisdom. True wisdom comes from humility of mind and not from scholastic achievement being nothing more than accumulations of facts and some degree of rationale in assimilating abstract in the natural. This is what Jesus was referring to the wise and the prudent of this world. Pride prevents. Nevertheless, like the proverbial camel through the eye of the needle, all things are possible with God.

I really don't see much need in following this line of discussion any further, we are going nowhere very rapidly.

I recall you playing this "I didn't say that" game a long time ago (like your first post), only to later contradict yourself.

So, in 1-2 sentences, come out say what you need to say. I don't have the Spirit to interpret your words.

The thing that Jesus was ultimately getting at was that the wise and prudent are hindered by a Spirit of pride which prevents them from true wisdom. True wisdom comes from humility of mind and not from scholastic achievement being nothing more than accumulations of facts and some degree of rationale in assimilating abstract in the natural.

Yes, pride gets in the way. It's simply not true to pretend Jesus is "ultimately getting at the point" that education makes a person more proud. That's as pure an example of eisegesis as I've heard. Let me guess, you have no formal graduate degree? (That would make sense to say the things you do)

I've never been more convinced that the more learned a person gets, the more humble they are about what is true. It's the ignorant that are red-faced know-it-all's. Jesus was ULTIMATELY talking to an audience with the context of a very nasty rebuke happening just before that, and much of it having to do with unbelief. Undress and unpack what he's saying with the context of the verse and chapter, not your own preconceived "egghead" opinions about learned (and Spirit-filled) people.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Thank you – you do me honor beyond my station.

Yet, in truth, I do understand your position as you have described it, I have been there myself. The difficulties we all face are multifaceted.

Our biggest problem rests in our world view, our manner and mode of thinking and relating to our physical environment. Our heritage consists of Greek and Roman thinking patterns. Which defines us as time dependent (linear), abstract thinkers in a noun based (object) language of expression. The writers and intended readers of the scriptures view the world from a time independent (spiral precept), concrete thinkers in a verb (action) based language. This makes understanding and identifying the correct application of scripture difficult. NOT impossible – just difficult. Much of our contemporary problems with scripture start with the simple ignorance of the scriptural languages by our teachers. The Greek language we can handle better than Hebrew because it is the language of Aristotle, the foundation of our own thinking patterns. But it still holds problems for us because the NT Greek was used to express Hebrew thoughts. The bottom line is that for the most part, our teachers simply do not understand what it is they profess to teach and the rest of us pay the price. 1Timothy 1:3-10

One of the fundamental principles is that the gospel is so simple that even those who have a diminished intellectual capacity can grasp the precepts of scriptures (e.g., simple right/wrong concepts, a God exists, etc). The other aspect is that the scriptures can become just as complex as any individual wishes to make them. Like the God they reveal, the depth is unsearchable. Scripture only opens the door to the infinite – they do not attempt to explain it.

One of my favorite sayings is, “God is. Jesus is His Messiah (the anointed one) because none of the rest of us measure up. Everything else is commentary, so go study.”

I realize how disconcerting and even frustrating the word of truth can be. I have not come even close to mastering it! That is why I have been reduced to making my own translations, so that I can attempt to paint the Hebraic language pictures, with their included sounds, sight, taste, touch and smell (verb/action/picture) attributes. After well over 40 years of study, in 2008 I finally took upon myself the title of ‘Serious Student of the Word’. No laying on of hands, no prophecy, nothing – I did it all by myself and on my own authority. Yet, I found that there was a heavy price to pay for that title.

While your questions raise more issues than this already overburdened thread was created to address, there remains yet one additional point you raised that needs to be addressed: The question of judgments.

Yes, men shall be called upon to judge angels, and at least the Apostles, perhaps all saints, will be called upon to judge the nations. How can this be when we cannot even judge issues among ourselves? Again, this is a problem of changing our mind set from Western to Hebraic. 1 Corinthians 6:1-5. While we so frequently judge as men judge (flesh), and not as God judges, we will have that ability after our resurrection. This doctrine is based on the promise that we shall know God even as we are now known (by Him).

In the mean time, we are still commanded to come to Christ as little children – simple in our approach, in the understanding of our God, and in our acceptance of the grace that has been offered to us in exchange for our iniquity before a holy and righteous God. It has more to do with one's point of view and attitude, than mental effort.

There is value in the Talmuds, the Mishna, etc. but the study of these commentaries should be left to teachers and teachers in training who have been previously instructed in the Hebrew language and world view. Attempting to digest these kinds of works is something like a person who has mastered algebra attempting to study advanced mathematical functions, such as understanding the Fourier transform or the Laplace transform, which are used for solving some differential and integral equations. My recommendation to most students is this: Stay with the scriptures and generally accepted English commentaries. Then start studying the biblical languages, history, culture, and religion of the original scripture writers. After gaining a good understanding of these subjects, then one ‘may’ be ready to undertake a study of the rabbinical instructions and commentaries. But then, the question is, why bother?

I know this post was very insufficient. The questions you posed require more serious responses than what we have time or room for here. Like all of the law questions asked by Ivy, perhaps separate threads would be in order for your concerns.

---------------
Now, I need to go back and study what has been posted on the thread concerning 'The Law'.

Thanks for the thorough answer. Much to consider.

I still find the act of Faith and the Christian movement to be a complicated one, especially using spectral evidence. The afterlife cannot be verified, other than ancient writings and dogmas that can be traced to the Catholic Church and other cultures that have mystified beliefs.

Much of my feelings about Religion(s) have evolved over many years of observing the bold expressions by people (including myself), which claimed absolute Truth, only to find it was an absolute assumption and even a lie. Men that use the unseen to captivate an audience are easily driven into a fairy tale, and the followers are the victims.

I also find it interesting how Christians can deem Jesus Christ as God in flesh, but just imagine a MAN walking into your Church claiming such a thing. We would call him a nut. Whether we admit it or not, a claim such as this from any human being would be hard to accept by any people, unless, the people involved are easily swayed in the mind.

I know this is a harsh doubt, but to ignore the validity of this experience of those 2 thousand years ago, we continue to do what most Christians do; accept something without truly understanding the impact, affect, and nature of a particular allegation made outside of our time element. I’ve seen this so much in the Church, and my heart grieves at how little we truly consider the World, past, present, and future. We are so locked into the “Now”, our ability to understand even those 100 years ago is a struggle grappled down by today’s ideal.

This is why it is so easy for us to say, “Jesus IS God”. He isn’t here and now telling us He IS God, walking up and down our aisles and streets under these bold claims. We pass the buck, knowing we don’t have to really face the FACTS. We seem to ignore that this was probably the greatest known problem with those accepting Jesus as the Messiah, as his proclamation of being the “I AM” was way too hard for the Jews to accept. Back then and to this day, devout Jews don’t even refer to God as a “He”, as this limits God and belittles the Almighty Spirit that fills EVERYTHING.

"Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human."

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism...fs/messiah.htm

I think, more involvement by people in the realities of this World would help us all to stop over-and-under estimating others who don’t see it our way. Touching the sick, hungry, and people who don’t sing or dress like us, can affect us in ways where the FACTS become more prevalent in our conclusions. Researching the Indians, Slavery, the Civil War, Genocide, and the True Nature of Religion, these and much more can impact our lives forever. Seeing the REAL good and bad in ALL civilizations can help us to stop being so arrogant about Faith and the Tenets of our narrow minds.

I personally feel that the Christian movement in America and abroad is the result of the Roman Empire embracing and politicizing Faith. There are just too many dots that connect our current Church model to the time frame after 300 AD. It is also interesting to note that all of the New Testament documents are written in Greek, the Roman language, and no originals exist.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Question: Looking at the [dis]unity of the body of Christ throughout the world, even within the OP movement - what went wrong?

My question has been answered.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

My question has been answered.

That the OP isn't really fragmented because we are all one Body?

If you say so... It was your question.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Socialite

That the OP isn't really fragmented because we are all one Body?

If you say so... It was your question.

Not at all - the OP is just as fragmented as the rest of the body of Christ.

[The Lemon]

Notforsale,

Could some of the issues we face also be in part because we as humans try to define the grace and mercy of God? I can't help but believe that we, in reality, have no idea to the depth of Gods grace and mercy toward us human beings.

I think in some cases, it makes us feel more secure in our earthly frame when we think we have a handle on the Almighty. In some ways, this may be one reason why so many hold claim to "The Truth", and absolute refusal to accept that we may really only have a small fraction of truth.

I have made this statement somewhere before, and I don't want to incite debate or any such thing, but just because something, or some system has a measure of success, that does not automatically mean that God signs off on every aspect as being right, true, or the only way. We are intuative enough to see that there are many businesses and even religions that have measures of success, but there are clearly practices that are not always honest, or in the case of religion, Biblical.

Just because God shows up to minister and bless in a service, does not mean that all the doctrine and teaching are being validated because God is present with us, but to some, because the Lord has showed up, belive that validates their church, their doctrine, and their organization, in some cases - but could it be that God just wants us in all of His mercy and Grace?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Notforsale,

Could some of the issues we face also be in part because we as humans try to define the grace and mercy of God? I can't help but believe that we, in reality, have no idea to the depth of Gods grace and mercy toward us human beings.

I think in some cases, it makes us feel more secure in our earthly frame when we think we have a handle on the Almighty. In some ways, this may be one reason why so many hold claim to "The Truth", and absolute refusal to accept that we may really only have a small fraction of truth.

I have made this statement somewhere before, and I don't want to incite debate or any such thing, but just because something, or some system has a measure of success, that does not automatically mean that God signs off on every aspect as being right, true, or the only way. We are intuative enough to see that there are many businesses and even religions that have measures of success, but there are clearly practices that are not always honest, or in the case of religion, Biblical.

Just because God shows up to minister and bless in a service, does not mean that all the doctrine and teaching are being validated because God is present with us, but to some, because the Lord has showed up, belive that validates their church, their doctrine, and their organization, in some cases - but could it be that God just wants us in all of His mercy and Grace?

Numerous good points you bring up. Reading into the depth of what you're saying, it seems to come back to what I said in my earlier post; the spectral, or unseen dimension is a man's greatest challenge and downfall when it comes to understanding God.

Think about it; no Book could even come close to describing a God who sets the stars in place! Not even ALL the Books in the World. Yet, we limit the Almighty by harnessing this Powerful God to a few pages in 1 Book! By doing this, groups and sects of Faith draw lines on how they SEE God, even though they've never seen God.

This creates the paradigm of putting God behind the bars of one's thought, where anything goes according to how we make conclusions. We soon resort to the indignant activity of making God "Fit". We claim absolute Truth, so we will sacrifice this claim upon the altar of a LIE to protect our belief. ALL Religions do this!! Admission of being wrong is something an Organized Faith hates to do!

An apology by the Roman Catholic Church about the false accusations and convictions of the man, Galileo, who discovered that the Earth was not the center of the Universe, didn't take place until the 1930's. This was centuries later. The "Church" just can't stomach when the bottom falls out!

And as you've stated, the Church also can't stomach when MERCY and GRACE launches into the depths of Hell! Reaching into the pit to touch the unclean or sinful, is not only something people don't like to do, the Old Testament supports the treatment of ignoring, and even casting out those who are ailed by illness or physical grief. This all goes back to, "We've got God figured out" (He likes us, but doesn’t like you).

To be honest, I don't think Human Beings are capable of understanding God's Grace. We are born with a vengeance, and we die with a vengeance. Whether it's Faith, Government, or Family, we seek revenge when lines are crossed. But God is capable, thank goodness!

And, you're right on the money with the "Success" issue. We LOVE to pat ourselves on the back when we score a touchdown, and we use our successes to leverage our agenda. Just think about a job application; we paint the best picture possible, using our good points to move up the ladder. We never want to put down that we were fired or give bad contacts as references.

As you already know, the Scribes and Pharisees are prime examples of people who used their successes to gain Religious attention and for leverage to those below them.

[The Lemon]

Not to stray off topic, but in keeping with my earlier post, there is another pattern that I have observed over my years in "church". As much as I have heard great messages about reaching the lost, and our main purpose and commission on earth, mostly after all the smoke clears the folks I have been associated with just go back to life as usual.

Anotherwards, I have seen more of an isolation from people then a real reaching of people, and again, that is just from my limited perspective. So much emphasis is placed on separation that it results in isolation, and the only meaningful relationships are those within the four walls of the church. And whats up with some of the web sites that show what would be classified as "normal" everyday folk, when the reality is that members of that church are in most cases very uniform and not so diverse. To me this is just bait and switch.

I don't want to win somebody to Christ with love and compassion, and then when they feel all warm and fuzzy I pull the rug out from under them and tell them that to be "involved" you need to look like us, and subscribe to all that is taught as doctrine (regardless of correct Biblical interpretation) I just don't get it, and the older I get the more disenchanted I am with organized religion, regardless of denomial flavor.

I know there is a need for peace and purpose in all our lives and I am certainly not advocating a downward spiral of discontentment, but somethings are really in plain site. I have seen how having the lavish building, and all the programs to attract the community, and all the fundraisers, and building fund programs effect the ability of a local church actually being the living church. It is in some cases no more then a club with membership dues and expectations. It is too much like a business, in my opinion.

I know not all assemblies are like this, I am not that foolish to believe that. I have found in my own life that when I quit trying to be exclusive I meet more people, and have more friends in general, maybe because I am now "approachable" I don't know.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Not to stray off topic, but in keeping with my earlier post, there is another pattern that I have observed over my years in "church". As much as I have heard great messages about reaching the lost, and our main purpose and commission on earth, mostly after all the smoke clears the folks I have been associated with just go back to life as usual.

Anotherwards, I have seen more of an isolation from people then a real reaching of people, and again, that is just from my limited perspective. So much emphasis is placed on separation that it results in isolation, and the only meaningful relationships are those within the four walls of the church. And whats up with some of the web sites that show what would be classified as "normal" everyday folk, when the reality is that members of that church are in most cases very uniform and not so diverse. To me this is just bait and switch.

I don't want to win somebody to Christ with love and compassion, and then when they feel all warm and fuzzy I pull the rug out from under them and tell them that to be "involved" you need to look like us, and subscribe to all that is taught as doctrine (regardless of correct Biblical interpretation) I just don't get it, and the older I get the more disenchanted I am with organized religion, regardless of denomial flavor.

I know there is a need for peace and purpose in all our lives and I am certainly not advocating a downward spiral of discontentment, but somethings are really in plain site. I have seen how having the lavish building, and all the programs to attract the community, and all the fundraisers, and building fund programs effect the ability of a local church actually being the living church. It is in some cases no more then a club with membership dues and expectations. It is too much like a business, in my opinion.

I know not all assemblies are like this, I am not that foolish to believe that. I have found in my own life that when I quit trying to be exclusive I meet more people, and have more friends in general, maybe because I am now "approachable" I don't know.

I agree, and find the same true in my own life.

[mfblume]

This thread reminds me of Romans 7 and the issue of law. I like what Albert Barnes said about Romans 7.

I regard this chapter as not referring exclusively to Paul in a state of nature, or of grace. The discussion is conducted without particular reference to that point. It is rather designed to group together the actions of a man’s life, whether in a state of conviction for sin, or in a state of grace, and to show that the effect of the Law is everywhere substantially the same. It equally fails everywhere in producing peace and sanctification.