Rev 16:9, An Argument Against Universalism

[Praxeas]

Universalism claims, in some incarnations, that men will be given a second chance "in hell" to repent and that in fact they will with their sufferings come to God.

As I read this verse I thought about Universalism

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


God has over the years given many the opportunity to repent and turn to God and they have rejected Him.

Here we have a clear biblical case of the judgments of God and in the face of this second chance, rather than accept God they just became all the more belligerent and rebellious. What makes any Universalist believe the judgments of God will force all men to turn to God when they have proven for years they won't?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Universalism claims, in some incarnations, that men will be given a second chance "in hell" to repent and that in fact they will with their sufferings come to God.

As I read this verse I thought about Universalism

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


God has over the years given many the opportunity to repent and turn to God and they have rejected Him.

Here we have a clear biblical case of the judgments of God and in the face of this second chance, rather than accept God they just became all the more belligerent and rebellious. What makes any Universalist believe the judgments of God will force all men to turn to God when they have proven for years they won't?

As usual you mis-characterize, Universal Reconciliation, as believing that God tortures his human creation until they finally give up and repent. Can you imagine ANY human being enduring the pain and agony of the traditional hellhole of torment for five minutes much less five day, months or years without surrender??? What sheer goofiness!!

Rev. 16, has already been fulfilled, it accomplished it goal of temporal judgment on the Jews that killed the prophets and the saints right up until the destruction of Judaism in 70 AD. To present this as the final fate of the wicked is just wrong. Jerusalem was the seat of the beast, and it was destroyed accordingly. The "plagues"? Rev. 16, has nothing to do with the finality of mankind.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

As usual you mis-characterize, Universal Reconciliation, as believing that God tortures his human creation until they finally give up and repent. Can you imagine ANY human being enduring the pain and agony of the traditional hellhole of torment for five minutes much less five day, months or years without surrender??? What sheer goofiness!!

Rev. 16, has already been fulfilled, it accomplished it goal of temporal judgment on the Jews that killed the prophets and the saints right up until the destruction of Judaism in 70 AD. To present this as the final fate of the wicked is just wrong. Jerusalem was the seat of the beast, and it was destroyed accordingly. The "plagues"? Rev. 16, has nothing to do with the finality of mankind.

I didn't mischaracterize anything. This is a position I heard.

This isn't about eschatology so whether or not it was already fulfilled is irrelevant

Do you believe those put into the Lake of Fire will be restored? Instantly?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't mischaracterize anything. This is a position I heard.

This isn't about eschatology so whether or not it was already fulfilled is irrelevant

Do you believe those put into the Lake of Fire will be restored? Instantly?

It is a position that I disagree with, because it mischaracterizes God, many UR's embrace it generally as a transitional position. Few embrace it after fully understanding UR.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I didn't mischaracterize anything. This is a position I heard.

This isn't about eschatology so whether or not it was already fulfilled is irrelevant

Do you believe those put into the Lake of Fire will be restored? Instantly?

Further, since Rev 16 is fulfilled, it is confirmed a temporal judgment, and therefore is not relevant to the final end of mankind.

The Lake of Fire is the final cleansing of the creation, and I do believe that God's fiery presence will instantly remove any and all evil, and death. As mankind clearly sees and understands the holiness of God in its full purity, none will be want to resist, but rather will immediately surrender all wickedness and gladly so.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Further, since Rev 16 is fulfilled, it is confirmed a temporal judgment, and therefore is not relevant to the final end of mankind.

The Lake of Fire is the final cleansing of the creation, and I do believe that God's fiery presence will instantly remove any and all evil, and death. As mankind clearly sees and understands the holiness of God in its full purity, none will be want to resist, but rather will immediately surrender all wickedness and gladly so.

Again you missed the point I was making. The point was that this judgment did not turn their heats to God, whether it already happened or not. So this is for those that think that is how people will be turned to God in the LOF

So it's painless, guiltless and everyone that ever lived for God could have just done what they pleased because in the end it won't matter

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Further, since Rev 16 is fulfilled, it is confirmed a temporal judgment, and therefore is not relevant to the final end of mankind.

The Lake of Fire is the final cleansing of the creation, and I do believe that God's fiery presence will instantly remove any and all evil, and death. As mankind clearly sees and understands the holiness of God in its full purity, none will be want to resist, but rather will immediately surrender all wickedness and gladly so.

Of course many of us believe that's what His blood does (removes evil, death) to all who believe

Eternal judgment is not a rehab program.

Let's quit fashioning gods after our own liking and choosing, determining things to be "not right" because we don't think it is.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Again you missed the point I was making. The point was that this judgment did not turn their heats to God, whether it already happened or not. So this is for those that think that is how people will be turned to God in the LOF

So it's painless, guiltless and everyone that ever lived for God could have just done what they pleased because in the end it won't matter

Exactly. We didn't even need the Cross. God is His Sovereignty could have figured something out. That pesky detail in his character called Justice though.

Don't even bother with the Gospel, sparing no urgency to tell others about Redemption. Whether they like it or not, it's coming

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Again you missed the point I was making. The point was that this judgment did not turn their heats to God, whether it already happened or not. So this is for those that think that is how people will be turned to God in the LOF

So it's painless, guiltless and everyone that ever lived for God could have just done what they pleased because in the end it won't matter

You, my friend, miss the point, the judgment of Rev 16, is not intended to turn folks to God, it is to remove those whose cup was full! Example: Pharoh, Hitler, Saddam and the like.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Of course many of us believe that's what His blood does (removes evil, death) to all who believe

Eternal judgment is not a rehab program.

Let's quit fashioning gods after our own liking and choosing, determining things to be "not right" because we don't think it is.

Please, stop and consider who fashioned "gods after our own liking"? Jesus said, I didn't come to condemn the world, rather to save the world.

I am very content to believe that He has succeeded, I don't need to stretch to reach the conclusions of UR, they are peppered thoughout scripture. And this view is much more in agreement with the character and the nature of our Heavenly Father.

Eternal judgment is not a rehab program.

Which would you approve of, a father that kills his children because they don't follow his values, or the Heavenly Father that "rehab's" even the worse of His children?? Which is more like God?