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View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Women Preachers?
Yes 128 62.44%
No 56 27.32%
Don't Care 21 10.24%
Voters: 205. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1711  
Old 02-17-2011, 09:49 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

rom.16



So this chapter has been neglected. This is a great pity, since it contains several puzzles.Beverly Roberts Garventa in her contribution to the Women's Bible Commentary heads this chapter, "Women in ministry" and whilst Paul greets more men than women here, nine women are singled out for mention and an article might be written on almost all of them individually. However, this piece will focus on verse 7.

Three questions arise from this verse.1. Is Junias male or female? 2. Are the two mentioned here apostles? 3. What does apostleship mean in this context?

The first requires some textual criticism,although it would be true to say that although "Iounian" is somewhat ambiguous,almost all translators regarded it as a feminine name until recently. Without going into a wealth of detail, it should be noted that the early church fathers treated it as feminine.The one exception is Epiphanius, the 4th.c. Bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, but since he thought Prisca was a man too, his evidence my be discounted! Although John Chrysostom, another 4thc. Bishop and writer was generally against women's leadership, he is fulsome in his praise of Junia, "How great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle." (Epistle to the Romans 31.2) Robert Cervin closes the discussion in his article "A note regarding the name Junia/s in Romans 16:7"(New Testament Studies 40 1996 466-470) "A proper examination of the lnguistic evidence regarding the name "Junia" show that the name is feminine not masculine."

The problem which adheres to all these questions is that some scholars are desperate to prove that there were no women apostles and others are equally desperate to prove that there were! As Bishop Tom Wright says in his "Paul for Everyone", "Don't be put off by some translations which call her Junias,as if she were a man. There is no reason for this except the anxiety of some about recognising that women could be apostles too".The Authorised (or King James) Version of the Bible has her as a woman. It was not until 1927 that the committee advising the United Bible Society on


the best possible Greek text, decided to change her sex. In 1994 they decided to change it back again. So translations between those dates tend to mae Junia into a man. One notable exception is the New Revised Standard Version of 1989.

It seems therefore, that the answer to question one is that she is female. Note that even if the writer is aganst women's leadership s/he may agree with this conclusion, for the next two questions need positive answers to prove the case.



Next, it is necessary to dig around the Greek of this verse to decide exactly how it should be translated.Again, the anxiety of scholars is evident. The King James Version has, "who are of note among the apostles". This is followed by the majority of translators- "of note" often translated, "prominent among" or "outstanding among". A minority translate,"well known to the apostles".To be fair, it is possible to translate either way. It has been pointed out that if Andronicus and Junia were prominent apostles, then it is strange that this is the only mention of them in the New Testament. A possible reply could be that there are others in the undisputed Apostolic band who receive scant mention in the New Testament.

How this phrase is translated is inextricably tied up with the final question. What is the meaing of apostleship? R.H.C. Lenski, in his "The Interpretation of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans" 906-7 argues that Paul uses "apostle" in a severely limited way. Paul is very jealous of his own apostleship. Like the 11,he has witnessed the resurrection,making him one of the twelve.

However,there is evidence that the word was used in wider sense. Retaining the meaning of "one commissioned and sent", Luke uses it in Acts of Barnabas (14:4, 14) and of Barnabas and Paul (13:2-4). S.Grenz and D.M. Kjesbo argue that there are four meanings of "apostolos"- 1. Those commissioned by Jesus.2.Those who were witnesses to the resurrection. 3 Those commissioned by a specific congregation to preach the gospel. 4 Those who have been given a special task by a specific church. (Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry. 1995, 92-96) They believe that Junia belonged to the third class, which of course would be a powerful argument for women's leadership in the church.

Three questions: a tick in all the boxes would lead to the conclusion that women were apostles in the early church. Most would be compelled to tick the first box, and many the second. However, the vital box is number three. If Junia was merely sent out, with her husband Andronicus to fulfil some special task, then this is an argument that women had some ministry in the early church, which few, if any could deny. A conundrum remains. Strong arguments against women's leadership appear elsewhere in the New Testament. Does Paul affirm women's leadership in Romans 16? To attack that question, it would be neccesary to unpack other verses, in future studies.

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  #1712  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:05 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[QUOTE=Light;1032009]You have made it very clear what you believe on this thread, could you be as forth coming on oldpathII survey of doctrine beliefs? Your reply to that thread left a lot of doubt![/QUOTE)
Sorry, of all you people you would doubt what I believe...I think anyone that has been to Brazil KNOWS we believe ACTS 2:38...and that we are 3 steppers as it was on the forum I learned this term...I have written on the forum since the time of JY when it was Faithchild. I personally knew JY and he also knew what I believed...
I have friends and kin folks that believe different but we are friends....that does not mean we agree on all things...
I differ with Brother Epley on women in ministry but we have known each other and are friends for many, many years.
I differ with Brother Blume on quite a few things but I consider him a friend...I personally believe and teach the church will go through tribulation.
I differ with Margie on some things but we call ourselves twin sisters...we love and care about each other...
It has never dawned on me that anyone would doubt how we believe after thousands and thousands of pictures and news letters...
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  #1713  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Was Junia a female apostle?
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According to the earliest texts, yes. The name Junia, and the context in which the name is given, is feminine, and Paul calls her a fellow apostle. Some groups and individuals have changed the name to "Junio", but this is due to their own prejudices about the subject. The only thing that is contested today is what "apostle" meant to Paul; it did not refer exclusively to the Twelve who were called by Jesus, or even Paul and the twelve, though he certainly thought the title carried a great deal of dignity. He apparently though all apostles were equal in that dignity as well, since he ironically refers to John and Peter as Super Apostles (yes, really) in one of his epistles. This stems from a disagreement he had with Peter, who initially sat and ate with Gentiles but then sat with the Jews upon the arrival of John (who lead the church in Jerusalem, and was probably the brother of Jesus according to reference in the Bible and Josephus). Paul chastised them for this, among other difference in opinion, apparently believing himself to be their equal despite them having known Christ personally while he was alive. And it seems that this was the general view. So for Paul to call a woman an Apostle is significant from a practical standpoint. However, since Paul was writing to audiences who already had common knowledge of what it was to be a Christian, or follower of "The Way", he leaves out explanations for such things, and we can only guess. Apostle itself only means "messenger", so it is possible it was used in many different contexts by the early church, though it seems to have been a sort of special position, like a prophet or deacon. We can only speculate what apostle meant to them, but yes, Junia was an apostle, and a woman.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Junia_...#ixzz4Nw7cykQ3
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  #1714  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:22 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
You aren't consistent, RDP.

If it says this is how we should greet each other, and you don't think it's a cultural limitation -- but you say "well it didn't say EVERY time." That just sounds suspicious and quite silly.

Why on earth would I, a Westerner living in the 21st Century greet a brother with a kiss??? Does that make even a lick of sense, RDP? Really? The way you read the scriptures is like it's a code of conduct, a rule book even --- instead of a shared story, informing us about God.

So how often should we be smooching each other? Once a year? One in a lifetime? How do we get our laws consistent with that law book called scripture?
This HAS GOT to be the silliest 'argument' I've ever heard in my life to attampt to invalidate I Tim. 2:11-15! Using your logic, NONE of the Bible is for us today....since we live as "Westerners in the 21st century"!?!? How in the world you can compare a greeting to God's order of headship is beyond me.

You simply refuse to accept I Tim. 2:11-15, so your best "argument" is to say, "Well, we don't greet each other w/ a holy kiss [& I've already told you that many do...for about the 5th time now!], so why should we take Paul seriously in I Tim. 2:11-15!" You can't be serious...this is much like the atheist argument that says that original life was planted here by aliens! This is what Ive been wasting my time w/??????????????????????????????
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  #1715  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:23 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[QUOTE=jfrog;1031699]That sounds kinda like the teen dilemma. "I'm a doing everything right because I'm just like all the other people in my youth group". Well, it may actually be true that you and your whole group are right... but just because a bunch of people agree with you doesn't make it so.[/QUOT

Ughh, the Apostle Paul agrees w/ me...he's the one who wrote it!
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  #1716  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:29 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
There's no logical fallacy here -- what are you talking about?

Prax's point is that there are some things "commanded" as a way of culture. You can refute why 1 Tim 2 is not to be refuted as cultural, but Prax's point is a legitimate point to interact on IMO.
It's not "legitimate" in the least & the fact that you defend it demonstrates that you need to study a bit further into hermeneutics. It IS an equivocation fallacy to compare the greeting principle w/ God's order of creation [not to mention the 'glory of man' instructing man!]...no matter how ya'll beller' that it's not.

Sorry Charlie...no comparison....& according to this view, then we should relegate the entire Bible to "culturally relevant"....will Y-O-U guys be "consistent" & apply the same criteria that you do to the "kiss" to entire Bible. I doubt it, so ya' might wanna' practice the ministry of the mirror before you talk to me about "consistency"!!
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  #1717  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:31 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

How about a little humor!

Adam looked at Eve and said "now listen here, woman; I wear the plants in this family!.." --- King's Clown
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  #1718  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:32 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
Expounded from the Scriptures... it's just soooooo terribly technical.

Like speaking "Thus saith the Lord" is something less than "Thus SAID the Lord?"
Not at all. These "women preacher" advocates claim that women can "preach" based upon the definition [flawed at that] of "prophecy". What does this mean today? It means they can get up & "preach/teach" to men w/in the church. Are suggesting that this does not necessarily entail the Bible!?!?!?
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  #1719  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:36 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
Not at all. These "women preacher" advocates claim that women can "preach" based upon the definition [flawed at that] of "prophecy". What does this mean today? It means they can get up & "preach/teach" to men w/in the church. Are suggesting that this does not necessarily entail the Bible!?!?!?
are you suggesting that the women prophetesses only spoke to women?
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  #1720  
Old 02-17-2011, 12:37 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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The fact that you gave jfrog a thumbsup here only shows how gullible you are. This thread is the reason that hardly ANY of my fellow preachers even come on this forum anymore. You guys go to no limits to justify your disobedience to the Bible.

For the 50th time now....The woman preacher issue is tied to the creation model of order & headship. Pls., pls. read S-L-O-W-L-Y here: "F-O-R Adam was FIRST formed, THEN Eve." For is a connective term tying the prededing thought to the present one. It is N-O-T tied to mere "cultural relevance". Good grief....is anyone at home in there????
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